Lords of Men? Any teasers? :)

Games Discussion Ars Magica
41

I'm really looking forward to this book. I find A&A and C&G to be some of the most useful supplements for reference and to give me a feeling for life and behavior at that time in history. Not being an historian myself, I tend to need to do more research to catch up and to dispel modern misconceptions of the past. I think this book will complement the other three. And being an Ars Magica 5th edition book, it's bound to be written well.

I'm also interested in the special combat rules. My groups tend to be full of mathematical minds (right now 3 who majored in physics, 1 math, 1 engineering, and 1 other), so we tend to like a little more mathematical detail since we gain flavor and don't get bogged down. From a design perspective I'm glad it's outside of the main book since I agree the main book should focus on the magic.

Chris

42

I've just finished going over the redlines on this (final proofreading edits), so it should be going into layout in the immediate future. A table of contents should go up once layout is finished.

(There are a lot of "should"s in there, because things might still interfere.)

43

Ah, Xavi: I see you haqve discovered Andrew "Pinata" Gronosky's weakness! But we knew of it before you, and so we soundly beat him with sticks long since, removing all of his sweet candy inards!

Bwahahahaha. :smiling_imp:

44

Now that I know my middle name is "Pinata" that explains a lot. :laughing:

45

I'm really looking forward to this one. :slight_smile: It was a lot of fun to work on, and I can't wait to see it!

46

I would like to answer M. Ferguson's question about Ordo Nobilis describing French culture as dominant in Middle-Ages. First of all, I must say I'm from Québec, Canada, an English-conquered French province, so you can take for granted that I'm biased if you want so.

It always makes me feel bad when I see how so many people think that Occident was more or less always dominated by English culture as it is today. For example (and to answer to Imrryran's reply), Crécy, Poitiers and Agincourt in the 14th century were not examples of England's dominance during Middle-Ages; they rather signaled the end of the period, with the rise of paid soldiers, centralized government, and the downfall of chivalry. In other words, while they were historically very important, they were all but archetypal medieval battles, even if they are often cited as such. On the other hand, most people don't know about Bouvines that happened in 1214 where the French king defeated both the king of England and the emperor of the Roman Empire in one of the most knightly battle of all times (please read George Duby's fantastic work for more info on this). So to summarize the Middle-Ages with Crécy, Poitiers and Agincourt would be a lot like summarizing Napoleon's life with Waterloo…

The English king Richard Lionhearth seldom or never spoke English and spent something like 6 months in his entire life in England, vastly preferring his domains in Anjou and Poitou where he stayed when he was not crusading (under the leadership of the king of France). As powerful as they were, in Middle-Ages, the Plantagenêts were vassals of the king of France before being kings of England and France as they later tried to achieve (please refer to Régine Pernoud's work on Richard Coeur-de-lion).

I would not be surprised either if William Marshall, whom some of you may know as the best knight of all time, would not even recognize this name as his, as his real name was Guillaume le Maréchal. The same could be said with Joan the Maid- Jeanne la Pucelle. Those well-known French-culture medieval heroes are often called by English names which, IMO, gives a false representation of the time. I understand why as they played a large role in English History but I think it makes a lot of people understate the importance of France during medieval times.

The same could be said with the arthurian legends which are often associated with 15th century's Thomas Malory while he mostly just wanted to bring to the English language the works of French writers like Chrétien de Troyes and Robert de Boron. The matter might be of Britain, but the ethics were French.

To conclude, I could go on and on on this subject, but I just wanted to say that I appreciated Ordo Nobilis a lot when it was issued because it didn't seem to me as partial (as one can see by reading the impressive bibliography and the end of the book) and I hope that Lords of Men will share this quality.

47

Just to be clear: my question wasn't "Do you think it was dominant" which is fair. When Ordo Nobilis says that nobles are good, French nobles are better and pious French nobles are best, it doesn't just mean in terms of skill: it means they are morally good, morally right. I was interested in what people though og the presumption that nobles are morally right.

Fortunately I don't feel that way. 8)

Although, to be fair, by 1220, the Plantagenents are no longer the vassals of the King of France.

I can't talk about what's in the book, and my question, as I say, was not so much about "French", but about "good".

48

I apologize. I I wasn't referring to you directly... I also suspect that "makes me feel bad" was not the proper expression... I meant something more like "slightly annoyed".

I guess that "Good" and "Dominant" are tightly related, at least historically speaking. Dominant classes usually impose their views on the lower classes of the society. Because I think that French culture was dominant at the time, I also think it defined a lot of what was seen as "Good" back then. For a player-character knight at least, this definition of good (noble-French-pious) seems fine for me and my troupe. For magi now, I guess they should be allowed to think much more freely. On the other hand, I like to see the magi of Ars Magica as fully integrated in the mundane medieval culture. In my game, most of them believe in God and respect (to various degrees) the Church and the nobles, at least initially. Also, I don't try to "judge" Middle-Ages ethics when I play Ars, just try to immerse myself in a world where the definition of "Good" is as complex, yet not necessarily the same as my own personal point of view.

49

I have to say I wasn't expecting any serious answer, this was just some (misguided it seems) attempt at humour. :wink:

On the serious note, I would dare say that the French culture you are referring to is not that French, but mostly Provencal (or Occitan, dunno which one is the right English term), and was later adopted by French and English nobility, in some part because of Aliénor d'Aquitaine influence at French then English courts, in some other part because of the conquest of the southern part of France by knights from the north. In that regard people living in late XIIth century and early XIIIth century who were considered as wondrous knights, like Richard Coeur de Lion, were more influenced by Provencal culture than by regular "mainstream" French culture of the time (the Provencal culture merging in the French nobility culture later).

50

Of course, northern France culture was deeply influenced by southern Provençal culture (which was in turn influenced by Spanish and Arabic cultures -we could go on and on). But in1220, I think the trouvères from the north were at their peek, certainly equaling the renown and influence of the troubadours of the south. Also, although they are seen as distinct political entities, technically, the count of Toulouse and the other lords of the south were still vassals of the king of France, and as you mentioned, even more so after the Albigensian Crusade... So certainly, the boundaries (cultural, political, etc.) between southern and northern France culture were not so clearly defined by that time. Let's say that the dominant French promoted a culture that was heavily influenced by Provençals.

Anyway, I apologize for having misunderstood both the question (of M. Ferguson) and the humor (of Imrryran). For this, I blame me and MY poor English culture...:wink:

51

Hmm... I'm really curious about news for Lords of Men now. Any chance of seeing the traditional Table of Contents soon? Surely, the book can't be that far away at the moment? :slight_smile:

Cheers,

Eirik

52

From the front page:

53

Yay! Yippeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!

I've been anxiously awaiting this one.

Chris

54

I'm waiting for my author's cheque, because I have decided it will be a part payment of my airfare to the UK...so I get to see my first "castle". Bwahahahaha.

While I'm there I will be plundering the UK for plot ideas. My wife and I were watching "Best of Time Team" the other day and we saw this thing, and I just turned to her and she said "You're going to pinch that for Ars Magica, aren't you?" I see Scotland and England as plot hook libraries waiting to be plundered...

55

Timothy Ferguson, Ars Magica's very own Lara Croft: Tomb Raider.

56

As long as he does not blow up the tower of london, all should be fine :stuck_out_tongue:

57

Timothy, obviously if you find yourselves in the west country or west midlands I would love to see you and show you some castles. And if you have the time, as GT UK 2010 is still very much in planning phase I could always time it to coincide with your visit if you wanted to make a brief appearance as a guest of honour?

58

Quick, the ToC and a Web Supplement have been posted, Download them now! :smiley:

59

Nifty stuff. My only comment is on page 5 of the web supplement is a list of "Missile Weapon Descriptions" that includes a Falchion, Halberd, Infantry Shield, Bastard Sword, and Whip. Um... Really? I can't wait to see these expanded combat rules :stuck_out_tongue:

Rich

60

Droolissimo - I hope this work reflects the apparently considerable variation in customs and land-holding systems across western Europe and in particular, having recently acquired some components of Domesday Book, the level of Church land-holding.