Loss of the gift and parma magica teaching


Can someone who had the gift and a score in parma magica, who then lose the gift (example by using the Transformation of the Spirit mystery ritual under the Becoming major mystery) teach it even if he cannot use it anymore (due to not having the gift anymore) in your opinion?

Good day!

My opinion, yes they can. Similar to a person who has lost their hands can still teach embroidery.

You need the Gift to learn Parma Magica, once the Gift is gone you can't study, train or in any other way improve it anymore. But I know of no restrictions with teaching it. Only that you can only teach what you know.

So a Failed Apprentice might stay at the covenant and teach Parma Magica. Naturally, only to magi who have sworn the Code.

Thanks Christian.
It seems there is an agreement here.

A bit out of topic, but such an apprentice would either be a magus in full right (even without gift) or be dead because the parma magica is the Order's most grand secret.

Yes, I see there are security issues. A full fledged magus losing his Gift may perhaps stay in the Order in an honorary position. Or simply killed, to keep Parma Magica a secret. Depending on what attitude the saga has to that.
And an apprentice losing his Gift before finishing Gauntlet will not have learned Parma Magica.

Arguably they may have leared the "everything but the final hand gesture" (ie, they could have 4.99 xp in it) in order to justify how an apprentice can be taught a level of an ability immideately after passing their gauntlet.

But I do agree that in that scenario, they're probably not all that useful to learn from. However, it does suggest that (since most apprentices will be in that boat - having picked up levels of parma via osmosis or whatever) they probably wouldn't be killed - they just don't actually know the entire ritual.

Hi Kevin,

Thank you.

I totally know about the "secret key" for the parma magica ability, but you are not the first person I read as saying "you gain 1 in parma during your final teaching season of parma magica as an apprentice" (= you said 4,99).
In your opinion, does that mean you can only have 5xp as if the parma teaching was an initiation of some sort, or was that a random example, and if your teaching is good, you could give 4,99 xps and when you give the "secret key" give the remaining 11,01 xp for a total of 16 (for example)?

I dunno. I think Failed Apprentice is a pretty good way to write a magus who made it all the way through his/her Gauntlet - and then Lost the Gift within eg year.

I very very vaguely remember reading somewhere something that implied that, if you lose your Gift, you can no longer teach the Arts. I would assume that would make it impossible to teach the Parma either.

I think they would be able to teach it, I expect they could study it- meaning that if we assume all texts are "coded" so that only someone who knows parma magica can study from them then the person would be able to, but could not advance their score in it. Which seems like a fine hair to split, but if you have lost your Gift and have access to parma magica texts and the magic realm then you could still use them to generate vis...

gameplay wise, I'd understand after a few time of playing that a magus would become a failed apprentice.

But RP wise, with the code as it is, I don't think a failed apprentice could have parma magica. Because it's an arcane ability which require the gift (see arcane lore: "unless you have the gift you canno learn parma magica" and "a gifted character who is not a hermetic magus and knows parma magica must take the Major story flaw enemy: entire order of hermes, as magi are bound by their Oath to slay the character on sight.

I'm not disagreeing.
I was just mentally re-skinning 'Failed Apprentice' as 'Failed Magus'
...and could easily see this concept as the background for a starting character, really.

Apprentices has the flaws Abandoned Apprentice and Suppressed Gift, which might help.

Sure, despite the name the virtue can cover any previously-Gifted character with some degree of Hermetic training, be it a single year or even the full 15.
Someone who is known, and accepted, by at least some part of the Order of Hermes. Someone without the need for Dark Secret or Enemies.

A virtue giving some degree of social status as well as access to otherwise restricted abilities. To model the "failed magus" I'd recommend also taking some exp-granting virtue to reflect having undergone 15 years of apprenticeship before losing the Gift, e.g Arcane Lore or Educated. I know you don't need the access to Arcane and Academic abilites those two grant, but the exp are nice. But since the Gift is lost just forget the Arts.

i can guess that House Mercere would have the custom to invite these magi to join their House, as a way to honor their Founder, and those who share his loss.

Which would be quite unsafe, indeed. Having these former magi knowing the secret of Parma roaming the roads of Mythic Europe, brrr...

House Mercere is a True Lineage, I'm guessing they'd only want their Founder's bloodline in their House.

(LOl, you speak of that and here I'm here, with a character sheet created 3 years ago (that I have opened to answer another thread) where I have a quote to help answering here :smiley:.)

There is an exception: some person of exception quality can be invited in Mercere house:
"A few of these Redcaps are adopted into the Order for the sole purpose of encouraging their unique talents. They do not carry messages, trade vis, or protect the Order, but instead spend their apprenticeship developing their art to levels of phenomenal virtuosity. By arrangement, some of these heralds of the age are invited to join House Jerbiton after swearing the Oath, where they are encouraged to practice their art as “Larta magi.” Not all of them pass through House Mercere, but it is less controversial than Houses adopting unGifted followers directly, and it may be possible for Redcaps to join other Houses in the same way.", in the "Minstrels and wanderers" of HOH TL p91 (quote from p93).

Good catch.
Thank you for enabling me to continue to be too lazy to look it up in the book myself. :wink:
I couldn't remember if there were any 5th ed sources for Larta magi, or whether it was purely 4th ed.