Magi In Combat

Well, folks, our new Ars campaign finally got underway, but the players are asking me just how "powerful" (read into that what you will) their magi will be in combat. Note: most of my players have only played with the standard D20 magic rules before so they have no idea what they are in for!:wink:

Any tips on nasty combat tricks that magi can use (esp while their Art scores are still relatively low...)?

Thanks all!

There are plenty of simple, low-level spells that can be highly effective. Spasms of the uncontrolled hand (ReCo5) makes a person drop his weapon, for instance. Rather useful - especially when one realizes that in Ars Magica there is no saving throw against spells.

Unless you are using the [color=violet]Pink Dot defense. :stuck_out_tongue:

I've always been a fan of improv. I esspecially like to watch Magi pass out.

More seriously a lot of the minor spells can work wonders and spontaneous magic is the shine on Ars 5's shining star.

Trip, slip, and blind come to mind as quick improvs to make combat intersting.

There might not be saving throws, but don't discount that your opponents might be knights or pious men recently blessed-- there's more than one way to foil a magus' spontaneous efforts.

Personally, I'm a fan of elements like auram, aquam, or terram for battlefield control through mostly indirect means. Opening pits, destroying arms and armor, whipping up winds, creating slippery oil on the ground-- things that are difficult to passivly resist. But honestly, it's been my experience that if it's come to combat, then things should be at their climax or they've gone terribly, terribly wrong.

Being capable for combat is great, it makes those moments a lot less questionable, but there are a lot of other things magi need to worry about, a lot of other applications for the magic that have as much merit, and in the long run, possibly more.


As someone who plays both Ars Magica and D&D fairly regularly, I would say a starting magus is about equivalent to a sixth-level sorcerer (where a grog is a first or second-level warrior). :bulb: Oh, plus, as I said in another post, no saving throw against spells (in most cases).

Maybe that analogy will help your players put Ars Magica in perspective.

According to Black Monks of Glastonbury, the ArM/d20 supplement, a starting magus is a 6th level wizard to the other starting characters at level 1-- in d20 terms. Bards and Sorcerers are suggested for hedge magic traditions. Rangers and Druids don't exist, and D&D 'monks' are sent back to the Orient and out of regular play.

I think the 6th level wizard == starting magus is a close approximation, but there are many spells in D&D that don't exist in ArM or are a bit more powerful in D&D or ArM. (Magic Missle? Yeah, not a 1st Magnitude spell. Lightning bolt? Far higher than third magnitude in ArM.) Certainly things like the Hermetic limits aren't imposed on d20 spellcasters. The Hermetic limitations make an ArM magus a different animal altogether from a d20 wizard. For one thing, I would say that a magus in ArM has the equivalent of all metamagic feats and all item creation feats from the outset. He has Leadership. He does not, necessarily, have a familiar-- and that familiar can be quite useful in the lab where the d20 familar can often be used to assist in combat...something I don't often see in ArM


An ars magica magus that is specialized on combat and is fresh out of apprienticeship is de facto capapble of defeating all mundane armies of the world at once.

The combanation of invisibility, levitating and a mastered fast, multi, wordless combat spell is too good to be true. And this combaniation can be taken by nearly every magic even the normaly peacefull ones.

With the mighty parma the normal magus a few years out of apprienticeship is immune to 99% of all relevant powers of even the powerfulest dragons, devils, fearies and angels. But with a bit preparing he is capable of breaking their resitance easily.

The combat between two mages is often only a question of first strike wins.

There are some MuCoElement spells that make a magus totaly immune to normal damage even the fire of a dragon.

Creating a wand with penetartion of 100 is easily.

The hermetic magic is clearly a combat magic with their parma, their mastered spells, their penetration and so on.

Magi with 0 years as a hermetic magus that arent specialized on cambat aent so hard... but a Tytalus with a focus on harming Auram magic 15 years out of apprienticeship can defeat a dragon with might 50 so easliy... I watched this in my own saga... and normal mundane people are only garbage and not an enemy for magi.

Your saga is very different from ours.

The Dominion is going to overwhelm you. It happens. Don't think that the Parma is going to stop it. Fresh out of gauntlet magi, even specialized in combat, don't have a Parma much over 1, maybe 2, a three if the perfect storm of a well trained master with decent communication and Good Teacher finds an Apt Student in a Covenant with a Teaching Laboratory. That's MR of 15 plus form...tops... When a Vengeful or Wrathful tenored Dominion aura shows up, Crusader knights blessed and pious and bent on destroying the minions of Satan that are terrorizing the area... you're going to get stomped as your spells harmlessly fizzle.

When the Demons come in and subtly begin convincing you of your own misconceptions of power and ability, your Pride and Greed are going to get the better of you and before you know it, they'll have an Arcane connection to you and that vaunted Parma is going to be so much tissue paper against their Maleifica. And while you may have Parma and all manner of power, the people who cook your food, who help keep your home-- yeah, those mundane people who are 'garbage?' Yeah, they're going to get turned by the demons, and you'll be poisoned, or clubbed by a mob as you try raising that Parma at sunrise, or bitten by a snake loosed in your bedchamber, or just have that Arcane Connection hand delivered to the enemy. No magus is an island. Someone supports him, and that someone isn't perpetually protected by the Parma.

And the Fae? Magical Creatures? There are similiar avenues available for the proper paradigm readjustment of freshly gauntleted magi with inappropriately misconceived notions of Vast Cosmic Power(TM).

Let us not forget that exercising what power a magus does have in such a blatant and offensive manner against the regular populace and powers-that-be in one's region is most certainly going to be filed under "interfering with the mundanes" and going to bring about a surefire charge at Tribunal, where many, many other vastly more powerful magi are going to explain to this new firecracker how his antics are about to disturb their otherwise undisturbed personal matters, courtesy of the Church and the Nobility now out to burn all the witches and worshippers of Satan who like to live in manor houses and read old books. They just might explain how very sorry they are that he has to be left, babbling his confession of contrition over and over and over again at the nave of the local church, begging to be forgiven in the cleansing flame of the pyre. Oh, he didn't know he was going to be doing that? Yes, yes he will be...with some puissant, subtle, quiet, mentum and the Local Hoplites 214.

I think you're forgetting that to focus on combat, one has to put a lot of study into very few arts in order to become very effective. By doing that, you begin to lack the diversity necessary for throwing off so many of the great protective magics you mention. And a ReVi 20 ward has to penetrate (if you play official RAW, Line-Editor-Has-Spoken-Wards), so good luck dealing with all but the more feeble creatures at the beginning of a magus' career.

Is the magus great at Mu, Pe, Re, Au, Co, Ig, Im, Me, Te, Vi? Ten arts, at 5 each...that doesn't allow for much more than a 4th, maybe a 5th magnitude spell out of gauntlet. And that magus is going to have very poor abilities in skills like Magic Theory, Concentration, Parma, Latin, Penetration, Finesse, Realm Lores, Weapon Skills, Leadership, Order Lore, Code Lore. Certainly one could then attempt to augment one's skillset with other virtues and flaws like Arcane Knowledge, Gild Training, or Warrior, or Covenant Upbringing, but that's only going to go so far and it's very much going to put a very specific focus on the character. That kind of background sounds more like a magus being trained to eventually be a Hoplite, and a parens with that in mind is going to instill the Code very deeply in their apprentice...which kind of precludes the whole random combat monster mentality. Combined with the quiet casting taken twice and the subtle magic you mentioned, and you've got room for 1 major merit and 1 minor merit more...that's not a lot to work with.

blink ...For what sort of effect? At what magnitude? That's kicking up the effective level of an enchantment by 10 magnitudes...I can only hope you meant this as hyperbole. Yes, getting a penetration of 30 on a device is often well within magi's capabilities not (relatively) long after Gauntlet, such items would probably need to be made in secret, rather than commissioned by a Verditius... "You want me to make a PeCo effect wand with a massive penetration? But that would only be useful against other....magi! Are you a hoplite, sodale? Expecting a Wizard War?" Items designed for demons, sure, no big deal. Fae...questionably uncontested, depending on the local politics and relations. But you have to know that when something ugly goes down, the Quasitors are going to be checking the sigil of the effect against that of every Verditius they can find, and then they're going to find out if the item was sold and to whom. Don't think the Verditius isn't going to charge a little more, too, if you're not a hoplite-- your need is obviously going to make you willing, or you wouldn't have shown up at his door.

I find this comment ironic, given that the Parma's invention was so magi could actually meet peacably in order to exchange knowledge without fear of treachery from other magi. Only after the Order was founded and the "Join or die" paradigm was established did its more offensive nature become explored.

I would vociferously argue that who strikes first between two magi isn't necessarily the one who wins, but rather the one who just signed his own death warrant. Without proper provocation and declaration, it's akin to saying, "Hey, I'm tired of playing this character, let's make a new one." Wizard Wars from the slain magus' amici, his pater, his filii, probably his covenant mates are all likely without good justification, and even then, you can't be certain that those people wouldn't work behind the scenes to ruin the slaying magus' life. And in 5E, magi can live a very, very long time...that's a pack of enemies with nothing to do but plan for the perfect moment.

Certamen. This is what Certamen is your magus can agree to disagree with the other magi and not have the whole thing disintegrate into a blood feud of Wizards' Wars. You know, that whole Code thing...

The point of the matter is this: Magi, don't get to big for your britches. There is always someone, something, someway to put a magus in his place, and it's foolish to think otherwise. Are magi potent? Certainly, no one contests that. But are they engines of conquest waiting to be unleashed against the mundane forces of the world who are so much fodder to be effortlessly crushed by the most recently gauntleted in their number? No, and not just no, but hell, no.


I, not quite jokingly, remind my players (a couple of which you play with ben) that parma doesn't save you against getting beat in the face with a brick...

ReIm 10 Wizard's Sidestep - probably among the most useful, in terms of combat, low level spells!

Since you were asking, before we went down the rathole of exaggeration... :wink:

An essential for magi early on is Sidestep. At ReIm10, it should be a staple for every wizard, combat oriented or not.

Others, by FoTe...

MuAn15 Stop the Charging Brigade (3+2voice+2group) V, M, G
This spell momentarily causes a forelimb of group of animals to become small and weak, like an infant of that species. When utilized against a charging group of knights, this often has deleterious effects on their mounted status as their steeds often crash to the ground. Each mount must make an Athletics+Dexterity roll of 9 or better or fall to the ground. A rider must make a Ride+Dexerity roll of 12 or better to remain in the saddle. A botch indicates a medium wound was suffered in the tumble.

{Adjust the difficulty of the check to remain up/mounted as you see fit.}

PeAn15 Thief of Boots (4+2voice+2group) V, M, G
This spell destroys a group objects made of wool or leather, fur or hide...usually the boots of the targeted group, though some might target pants or belts. The idea with such a spell is to hinder a group of opponents from pursuit through rough terrain or heavy undergrowth.

ReAn5 Traitorous Saddles (1+2voice+2group) V, M, G
This spell unlatches the belts and fittings of a small group of saddles, no more than four, causing them to become unsecured to their mount. A rider at a standstill might not notice anything amiss at first. A rider in motion must make a Ride+Dexerity roll of 9 or better or fall to the ground. A botch indicates a medium wound was suffered in the tumble. Any further attempt to participate in combat or perform other such maneuvers in an unsecured saddle requires a Ride+Dexerity roll of 12 or better or the rider falls to the ground.

CrAq10 Instant Slick of Slippery Oil, As per footsteps of slippery oil, but at voice range.

PeAq20 Parching Wind is probably at the outer edge of a starting magus' abilities, unless he's a specialist...

ReAq10 Creek's Vengence (3+2voice+1Au Req)
This spell momentarily turns an existing individual target of water into hot steam and blasts it at a target, inflicting a +3 wound on a person and temporarily blinding them.

CrAu10 Jupiter's Resounding Blow...

PeAu20 of Room of Stale Air, but increasing the duration to Diameter or Concentration-- again, at the outer range for a new magus, lest they're a specialist, but that would keep the area constantly stuffy, and maintain the penalty. If your magus can hit PeAu25, you can destroy the air in the room, possibly suffocating the targets within.

PeCo20 could increase Touch of the Goose Feather to group and concentration, providing a constant penalty to the groups actions, and certainly rendering them incapable of stealth...I would require a concentration check of 7+ each round to cause the effect, or the spell ceases. This sort of reoccuring effect might have a greater magnitude or be unacceptable in your saga.

CrHe10 Trap of the Entwining Vines, but dropped to diameter. If combat lasts more than 20 rounds, something's gone horribly wrong.

CrHe15 Wall of Thorns, again to diameter, if necessary, drop it another magnitude and choose touch... creating a very close and if fast-cast, surprising barrier.

MuHe10 Transformation of the Thorny Staff, but shift it to voice, drop it to diameter, causing the polearm or staff targeted to become unwieldable, as it is covered in thorns. Trying to keep ahold of the weapon inflicts a +4 wound.

Make this PeHe10 and instead just destroy the haft at voice range and momentary duration.

ReHe15 makes Dance of the Staves a group target...that band of spearmen is going to have a rough six seconds.

CrIg15 makes Heat of the Searing forge diameter, and that's going to make a knight smell like hotdogs.

PeIg15 Winter's Icy Bite (5+2voice)
Inflicts +5 damage to the target, Armor doesn't add to soak for this damage, so freeze on...

ReIg15 will drop Ward of heat and flame to personal range and diameter duration, which is good for right before known battles involving fire, specialist can kick it up to sun...

PeIm10 can give you Veil of Invisibility for diameter

CrMe15 can give you Panic of the Trembling Heart at voice range for diameter, that should send a foe running.

PeMe15 should make a foe lose all hostility at voice and diameter, as long as you don't attack him, he shouldn't attack you.

ReMe20 Is Call to slumber group target...sleepy enemies don't resist throat cutting well.

Cr(Re)Te15 will create a cubic pace of stone you can then smash a target with for +15 damage once...then a

ReTe15 will let you then control that stone at voice range for diameter and use it to continue smashing targets....or if there was a stone already available...

MuTe15 will let you turn a sword into sand for diameter duration, but momentary would probably be enough to make it fall apart. A specialist could go for the group at MuTe20

PeTe10 destroys a sword at voice, or PeTe15 makes that group of oncoming attackers find a Pit of Gaping Earth... PeTe20 will get you a group of swords gone, or their armor...

There you go...probably more than you needed or wanted, with some obvious suggestions out of the book...sorry!


When you're slinging spells in the open anyway, here are some of my favourite playfull fighting spells:

Mu(Re)Te 10 The stone pilar
Boosts up a pilar of sand/mud/earth (5 ft. diameter) 5 paces into the air. Then transforms it to stone for one diam. When the time is up, the stone shifts back to sand and you slide down gently enough not to be damaged.
(Base 3, +1 touch, +1 diam, +1 Rego effect)

ReAq 5 I win this staring contest
By looking someone in the eye all his tear-fluid expells (the cry-baby). This leaves his eyes irritated and dry.
(Base 3, +2 eye contact)

ReAq 25 Whirling tower of water
Suck up some local pond or stream and let it swirl around you. It will make you 'invisible' (though the water column is definately not) and deflects most ranged attacks. The column has a 5 ft. clear space in the centre, with a 2 ft. wall of washing water. The column can be about 20 paces high, which is more than enough to shield a normal human. If you don't want to keep the water shield up: just toss it at somebody who has to make a 9+ str/stress roll to remain standing.
(Base 5, +2 voice, +1 concentration, +1 control during the duration (so you can walk while protected and toss it away at the end))

Cool: but they have to aim you with your spells and have to hit you with your sword and you cant do this while the magus is invisible and fly 100 paces high. And dominion auras dont undo your parma, they only decrease the penetration of your formulaic spells. But with casting totals of 50 at the beginning this doesnt matter very much (focus plus 2 high arts with affinity and BÄM.)

Yoe missunderstand me: the Dominion and the Infernal as well as mundane people are a big thread to magi, the pope could grant every christian total invulerability and a MR of 200 for a year if he has the right method and power combination... and of course normal people can make terrible sneak attacks: but the question of the thread maker was how strong is a magus in a direct combat. And in a direct combat (against a monster, a peasant, a knight, a magus) a hermetic magus is sooooooo powerful...

Yes of course, because of that my magi doesnt fight against mundanes (besinde sof thieves and robbers) for tha last 2 1/2 outgame years. :wink:
And politics and intrigue is a extremly important part of our saga, without it the players covenant would be a pile of ash very soon.
I think you suggest that we have a saga with many combat in it because of my point of view, but it is the total opposite: Because I know if someone confronts the magi directly he will be dead/banished in 0,001 seconds the gamingstyle of me as the gamemmasater is focused on non-violent solutions for problems.

Oh... hmm you need Rego, Perdo and Imaginem of 3-5 for getting invisible and to levitate and some combination of two arts (Creo and a Element, Perdo and Corpus, Rego Mentem or something like this) to pull of some NASTY effect (I heard of a magi that likes to create 10 tonns of iron over his enemys if he wants with his spont magic, and he is someone with no other true combat spell) and so you have nearly invulerability and extreme attack power. And this is something I suggest for EVERY magus that is fresh out of gauntlet, only true pacifists would be an exeption.
The invulnerability spells are something for focused people: I speak of MuCoElement spells of 50 or more. But for someone with the focus on self-transformation or something like this it is doable in a few years out of gauntlet.

15 years out of gauntlet some of my magi (without elder verditius runes) can make lab totals of nearly 100. If you make a CrAu lightning spell with a Penetration of 80 our Tytalus magi could make it in 2-3 seasons (with unlimited uses of course). But they dont do it because this is lame and would take the fun and the challenge out of the game. I always say: yes you can make this real, but at this moment every other NPC magus can do this too.

Well, every magic tradition of some power that choosed not to join the order was extinguished by the parma using magi of the order.

If some magi with good first strike powers can wipe out a whole covenant witha single action then noone could find and slay him. Besides this there could be moments I wich the PCs confront a diabolic magus or some Diedne or some magus that has already slain an other magus or perhaps the magi are the bad guys and want to kill the quaesitor before he finds out...

Of course. But they COULD do it. They dont do it because this is a bad idea, I didnt say something else, but if some robbers truly want to rob the magi or a pagan army like the mongols would try to burn down a covenant.... they are no true adventure seed for magi. They are only trash that is wiped out soooo easy even if your magi are weak.
If you want to have fun in Ars Magica you cant do adventures that are dungeon crawlings and consst of encountering many monsters or some big, bad guild of assasins.... because these arent problems for magi, they are fun for a Flambeau who wants to test his new flame spell nothing more.
Adventures that challenge magi are something about thinking, use magic in a cretive way, detctive storiey, political intrigues, exploring new countries or citys of the old ones... but a dragon that wants to take the covenant with a MM of 50 as a whole story? Our Tytalus or our ex Misc would be happy about this: new Vis. Yahy!

Ediot: so a good advice for Kirk: dont let your magi create killing machines that can only kill and fight. And dont create adventures with many enemys to fight and kill and loot. It is not bad for a magus to be good in combat, because the medevial world is not so funny sometimes and devils and fearies might well try to kill your magi. But this should be a rare event, not the normal event! Let your magi have at least some spells that make them better at dealing with mundanes, travel, sneak, hunting, speaking with animals/trees, find clues and so on.

Efectiveness of magi against 99.9% of mundanes: 100%. The moment you throw your first spell, the mundanes flee in terror. Blatant magic is NOT common in mythic europe, and most people will be terrorized by it.

Efectiveness of magi against the 0.01% of remaining mundanes and most supernatural creatures: depends on respective Might scores.

Most of the time resolving combat situations will be a show-up event, regardless of how much damage you can actually cause. CrIm tends to be a much more powerful combat tool than CrIg against most mundanes.



If you're invisible and 100 paces up, you're not casting at voice range, that's for certain. You've also taken two rounds to put yourself there, or you've risked botches with fast casting (possibly in an aura that is unfriendly to Hermetics). But I have to disagree, the Dominion aura won't just decrease penetration, it might put a casting total below what's necessary to pull off a spell. Divine powers are just as likely to provide archers with sight unclouded by Imaginem magics, and 100 paces is definitely in bowshot.

Casting totals of 50? At the beginning?... If you had two arts at 10, with affinity, that puts them at 12, assuming you had a Major Magical Focus in Combat (Which I think would be too broad, but that's just my opinion.) you could get close to a 42? If you had a Positive Cyclic magic and appropriate Special Circumstances, I guess maybe you'd get up to a total of 48...(12+24+3stamina+3voice/gestures+6virtues) You would have spent more than 2/3 of your experience on two arts, probably ReCo?, but you'd still need a score in PeIm for your invisibility...and your virtues would be very tied into combat casting...By contrast, your Latin, Magic Theory and other skills would be abysmal to start. And casting in a Dominion Aura of 3, like that around most churches in a village, would put a -9 on that casting total and negate what you'd roll.

This may be another case of YMMV, but casting totals of 50+ early on seem like they should be very rare to me.

And I say that magus is limited, based on arts and the enemy he faces. Your ReCo specialist is going to have no problems with a peasant, a knight will depend on his piety and the environment you face him in, an opponent magus will have the same issues the character magus has-- his offensive capability will depend on his arts and his parma, and a monster will likely tear through a ReCo specialist to find out if he's filled with candy unless that specialist chose 7LS and manages a fast cast or a good initiative. In my opinion, 1 out of 4, especially when that 1 is likely to be the least of your worries, is not so good.

You're still talking about 6 arts (Cr, Pe, Re, Co, Im, Aq/Au/He/Ig/Te) at a 5, 90 of your 150 xp. Affinity twice would put two of them at 7. Arcane Lore, Gild Training, Quiet Casting x2, Subtle Magic, don't have a lot of virtues to work with there. If you want to squeeze out those other bonuses like Positive Cyclic and Special Circumstances:Combat, you ditch the Subtle and the Quiet casting, which would leave you with one free virtue...for our exercise, let's choose Book Learner. Covenant Upbringing will be a mandatory flaw to allow latin as a skill prior to apprenticeship.

If your focus was MuCo, like we talked about above, I still don't think you'll be cranking out the spells that you mentioned. Off the guidelines, a +1 to the soak value increases the magnitude by a MuCo(Element) spell is going to give you the +5 soak at a base of 30 for diameter and inventing it as that specialist is going to be an investment of time. If your MMF was Transmutation instead, you'd be starting off with a lab total around 45. Since you've mentioned it, let's go with Ig as the transmutation of choice.

Assuming stats of +2int, +2sta, +1com, the above virtues with initial scores of Mu:12, Pe:3, Re:2, Co12, Ig3, Im3, and skills of Latin:4, ArtLib:2, Magic Theory:3, Parma:1, Concentration:1, Finesse:2, Penetration:3, OoH Lore:3....(This suggests that Apprenticeship didn't begin until 8, and that years 6 & 7 were spent learning latin to 2, with 15 discretionary xp. Apprenticeship has 25xp left, 15 to ArtLib:2, 10 in MT. We'll say Ash Gild Training puts OoH Lore at 3, Latin at 4, Penetration at 2(25xp). Arcane Lore puts MT to 3, Penetration to 3, and the rest of our skills as listed.)

If you spent the first year and a half with (What I would consider) fantastic Mu, Co, and Ig Summae-- Level 16, Quality 15 (We'll assume the author had 40s in the arts, +2com, and Good Teacher). Two seasons with each will add 54xp to Mu and Co (After Book learner and Affinity) and 36 to Ig for totals of Mu:16, Co:16, Ig:8(42xp). Two more with the Ig gets you to Ig:12 and the end of your second year. This doesn't allow for adventure or service to the Covenant-- two things that can definitely throw a wrench in one's plans. If the next three seasons after that are spent becoming current with service to the Covenant through creating Ig-based items(+6 to Ig via exposure), we can do the last season back at the Ig summa to get that total to 13(104), so close to 14.

Now, it's been a few years, so let's make that MuCo(Ig) spell you mentioned to become immune to dragonfire. Stellatus' fiery breath seems like a good base effect to measure against...and we'll aim for that +15 damage.

MuCo(Ig) for +15 soak is well beyond our range, so, we'll say +9 soak for diameter...that's MuCo50, the outer limit for a formulaic spell. We probably took a MuCo30 variant of this as one of our starting spells, just so we have a similar spell known. Our lab total is:

48(F/T thanks to MMF:Transmutation) +2int+ 3MT +6 for similar spell + 3 for positive cyclic for a total of 62. 62-50... it'll only take us a year and a season to invent the spell, and then we'll need to catch up on service to the Covenant again. Our Ig would be at 14 now, though, with a season to spare...

and where does it leave us? Four years out of Gauntlet with a soak of +9 +2sta +3ig form bonus for a total of +14.

As long as you made the Quik+Athletics roll of +12, you'd only take a +1+stress die in fire damage...but you can't make that roll with out a very lucky stress die, so you'll very likely be taking +16+stress die in fire damage if you get the Quik+Athletics roll of +9....mmmm, incapacitation... That seems like a long ways from invulnerability to me.

Again, this seems like hyperbole. For a wand that does CrAu35 an unlimited number of times per day with 80 penetration, you're talking about an effectively level 85 device. With a lab total of 99, it would still take you 2 seasons to get a device that only lasts seven years...I don't think this is within the reach of every other magus 15 years out of Gauntlet, to me this is still very much the realm of a specialist.

By comparison, Tabanus, the Guernicus Quasitor 15 years out of Gauntlet in GotF has a base Lab total of 27 in his strong arts...

Actually, the Kabbalists/Order of Sulieman in Spain is the only group to be fought to a truce. The Order of Odin (If it exists in your saga) is either on the ropes, biding its time, or preparing to strike, depending on who you talk to. Goetics are usually independent and have no organization, per se, and Arabic Sorcerers are in a similiar while they're not incorporated, I don't think I'd go so far as to call them extinguished. Flambeau in Iberia might argue the point with you that those nonHermetics I mentioned are not of 'some power.'

The Exsules in GotF are another option for nonHermetics of some potency, as well...

blink Wipe out a ... if you've got a magus in your saga that can wipe out a whole covenant in a single action with no survivors, through the Aegis, through the Parma... I don't know what to say... That level of power is difficult to consider putting in numbers. I would expect it of an Archmagus of Archmagi, or Dav'nalleous. That's not just casually tossed about.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. There are just too many variables, too many circumstances, too many possibilities that could just as easily tip the balance to the favor of the mundanes. I'm reminded of the Sacking of Cad Gadu or Natura Antiqua by DeMandeville in Stonehenge or the plunder of Rethra, the burning of Treverorum or Rheinstein in Rhine. All suffered at the hands of mundane mobs or armies. Underestimate them at your own peril.


Oh comm on. A own invisibiliyt formulaic spell (that works well even if you are 10 under the level of your spell with your casting total) is of such a low level... perhaps if the magi trys to cast it in a chruch on eastern mess... but in a normal city with an aura of 3? No thats not making him visible... and 100 paces... then he does it on 50 it dioesnt matter. No one can sense him and if it is his amsterred killing spell he should also have it on sight.

And puissants and good masters and so on.

Indeed :wink:

Why Reco? Not a very good combaination for combat magy IMHO. But ok... a group spell for Diamater that flows them 100 paces high and drops them shoulndt be of such a high magnitude.

There are some virtues like mastered spells or flawwless magic or good master or something like these that give youa dditional exp. Besidesthat: a magus with staina 3 and 3 in two arts is good enough to cast a level 20 formualic spell if he accepts that in most cases he will get one fatigue level. For life saving spells thats no big problem I think. And own invisibility and own leviattion are 5 or 10 level spells if I remember correctly so he perhaps need only 1 in peIm and ReCo. :wink:

Oh well I have other ideas... a spell that turns the caster into an fluid element that cant be harmed, hard to explain. But try to hit a living lightning (that can walk normaly, has 2 arms and legs and a head with he can spek and some imaginem spell that give ihm a fully human shape ) with a sword. This would be a 50 spell. Someone who clearly focuses on such a spell and relevant abilitys to learn it almost from start can learn this after some years (spending in specializing his lab( a bonus of 5 is not so hard to get) , gaining a familiar and let him read books about MT (if the familiar is good at Int you can get 5-10 points easily), pushing his arts and so on). Ok this is not something that is easy or simple... but if you go this way you are truly a good to normal people.

It is the normal in our saga (and in some others that posted their lab totals in this forum).

Creo 17(34), Auram 18, Focus, MT with spezialisation 5, familiar for 7 bonus, apprientice for 6 bonus, lab for 11 bonus, aura or 5 bonus, Int for 3 bonus, simular spell bonus 8 (knows it on sight), form and material bons of 5: lab total for this item: 102 (without experimentation).

What about the high penetration wand or a magus with some vis, some confidence (again the tytalus) and his 4 times mastered lightning bolt spell? ^^

Yes there are always bad circumstances and magi can have always problems... but this goes for everything and everyone in the world. :stuck_out_tongue:

Last game session: one of the familiars, a wolf with a enchantment that grants him human shape, is hunted by the population of a small city (2000 inhabitants) because they think he is a werwolf. The magi quickly knwos about this and they all made them flying and unseen. Now they had two chopices:

1.) Killing all of his followers and eredicate the whole city as a punishment or just for fn. This would be easy: the ex Misc necromamcer could summon more that 100.000 skelettosn with weapons in an hour with his formualic magic (most of them with a penetration of 25), the Bonisagus could mindcontrol them fpr suicide or killing their friends one by one, the Tytalus could wipe them out with his Auram magic and the Verditius could have summoned enough metal (his focus) to make the whole city as flat as a paper. But after this they would be hunted by the powers of the dominion and the order of hermes, their covenant would be ash and they would be killed by the arcane connections their old masters have of them.

2.) Find another way to free him, make politics, a deal or perhaps sneak in or fake the dead of te "werwolf" or let some of their companions do this.

They obviously choose 2.) but I dont want to count such senctences as "Damn my magus wants to kill tem all, fucking oath of hermes!" or "If this stupid townsfolk say this once more I let them bite of their own arms!" or "If only they were some diabolists or fearies or magical beeings!".

The thing that holds magi back from going in a all devestating killing spree is not the combat power of their enemys: it is their own oath and the long-term power of both the divine and the infernal (and the fact that there are enough magi on one of these sides).


Let's assume, for a moment, that a lone magus of moderate experience is completely capable of defeating mundane armies, depopulating cities and deposing rulers as he pleases. The angels and saints shall not rise up against him in all their heavenly might, but shed silent tears as he exercises his human free will. The demons of hell shall be too busy celebrating to backstab him or thwart him just because the GM can create NPCs of arbitrary power.

That's sort of the way the real world works too, isn't it?

If, for the sake of example, on September 12, 2001, the United States had turned Iran, Iraq, Afganistan and other nations of similar ilk into a radioactive pile of ashes, who could have prevented it, or even taken proportional vengeance? Why didn't it happen?

Magi are people too. Most people--as opposed to most game characters--are not sociopaths. They do not want to kill people they look down upon, they feel empathy, they see themselves as part of a larger community. They are social creatures, even (especially?) because they have social difficulties.

"The mundanes" include lovers, family, admired scholars and inventors, the salt of the earth...

Never mind that if one magus starts abusing his power, he will likely be opposed by other magi. ("Your vicious attack on the baron's retinue was unprovoked and unreasonable--by the way, he is the nephew of my ex-wife. He is a good Christian and has been a friend to the Order. I shall look forward to the full moon, when I cut you down like a rabid dog....")

Never mind that. Real people--including magi--act like real people.

Perhaps a better emphasis oughtn't be on what magi can do with his magic, in theory, but what a magus is likely to want to do. It's about character, not magic.