Magic Adiction + flawless magic

Some (rare) junkies do attempt to "master" the art of consuming of their substance of choice, both in RL and fiction (Sherlock Holmes being one example). Doesn't speak to game balance, but it's not impossible as a concept or plotline.

Not rare at all for them to try! So many alcoholics are like this. Very rare to succeed. :slight_smile:/120348723947923471239078057

Yeah, the whole master the addiction thing in real life addiction terms is just way off topic. Humans will rationalize any behavior.
Going back to the mechanics.

If the roll is a simple die roll, the character with magic addiction doesn't check for addiction. If the character decides to master the spell, because it makes all rolls stress rolls, but these are non botching rolls in situations where a simple die roll would normally be applicable he has effectively made his character worse off. So now the individual has to check for addiction in all cases the spell is used, whereas before it could be used safely.

Perhaps the mechanic needs to be if the non botching stress die exceeds 10 it requires a concentration check, as the caster tapped into some exceedingly powerful energy source. Even then, I don't care for that, because the idea behind mastery is to make using spells safer or in potentially different ways.

Flawless Magic doesn't directly mitigate Magic Addiction, in fact, three virtue points devoted to Affinity, Puissant and Cautious with Concentration will go much further towards mitigating than Flawless Magic. Also high Int (since it's an Int+Concentration roll), and this path is superior in all conditions where an addiction check is necessary, whereas the magus with Flawless Magic gets no real chance to control the addiction, it just makes all rolls an addiction. It now becomes a case of a Virtue making a Flaw even worse.

Conversely I can see an addicted mage feeling safer with a mastered spell and therefore more likely to fall into addictive behavior. "It's okay, I've mastered this spell, I should use it again, and again, and again... What do you mean we don't need 500 broomsticks carrying water?"

Are you implying that MM was a junkie?

This is different from the case of a real life addict thinking he can manage his addiction safely how?

I can see your point, and I've said that the letter of the rules means mastered spells roll to check for addiction. I'm just pointing out that Flawless Magic, for the reason all spells are mastered, makes Magic Addiction a worse flaw than it normally is. It makes Spell Mastery, which is normally done to improve a character, something that effectively makes a character worse off. Is that within the spirit of the rules? And two characters, one with MA + FM and one with MA can cast the same spell (not mastered for the one with just MA) under optimal conditions (no chance of botching) and the MA+FM one has to check for addiction? Putting it another way, the guy with MA+FM should be passed out at least some part of everyday, because he's going to botch a concentration roll often enough.

As a flaw, I really like it, I like botching the concentration roll. I could do without having to make a concentration roll for every single spell cast, as that's, to me, beyond the spirit of the rules. It is reasonable that an outstanding success, a roll of more than 10, might trigger an addiction roll. That, to me, is flavorful.

With a mastered spell he really can't botch, as opposed to most people who think they are managing their addiction and are deluding themselves.

Can't botch the spell, but he can botch the concentration roll. Now, one can argue that the concentration roll should not be a stress roll, if the conditions of the spell casting aren't stressful. And in that case, I have to ask, what's the point of forcing a concentration check for addiction, what have you gained?

I have no objection to a stressful situation requiring a concentration check. I do have an issue with a non-stressful situation causing a concentration check, and that concentration roll being a stress die. Now given, most of the rolls I ask for are stress die, but I also allow no rolls for conditions where the casting score exceeds the spell level or is really close, and it's a forgone conclusion. Technically, the magus with Magic Addiction and Flawless Magic or mastered spells doesn't get the same consideration, and could, by RAW, knock himself out before the day even starts. It might make the story interesting, or it might not. I think it's better to heighten tension that the concentration roll botches in combat, and the magus now has a countdown of how long they're going to last, and has a clear idea of what they need to do. Of course, he could also cast spells that don't fatigue him for some time and then do the spells that do fatigue him after combat has finished. Still, it's a more interesting scenario, to me, to have it happen in or during combat. Or when the SG can change the narrative of the story, as Doctorcomics did in my case, where the addiction added an interesting story element.

Yeah, magic addiction can be a very nasty flaw.

Even if the concentration roll isn't stress, the flaw forces certain kinds of action, which can be very dangerous.

I should note that I am of the "anti-random" school of thought; games are chaotic environments in which unexpected events emerge anyway. Better not to roll dice, better not to have weird criticals and fumbles if you do. Of course, if a player signs up for such things, by taking appropriate virtues and flaws, it is a different matter. I see this as part of the "who has control of a character, player or GM?" issue. AM5 handles this particular situation rather well, I think, in assuming that it is always the player... with the exception of certain flaws that explicitly allow the GM to take control.

IIRC, the concentration roll for MA isn't necessarily stress, so adjudication will vary across sagas. One SG might make them all stress, another none, a third might decide after the fourth roll that the situation has become stressful, and that even the spellcasting rolls can now botch, with an increase of 1 botch die per round after the fourth. Still another SG might allow the magus to fail the first N rolls without rolling and then try with a good bonus.

I actually think that the concentration roll is intrinsically stressful, since the consequence of failure is dangerous and the magus knows it. But MMVs.

Another tangent: If we consider all human development as initiations, a magus might develop Organization Lore:Spellcasters Anonymous, and develop scripts for Cautious with Concentration and other virtues :slight_smile:.

Anyway,

Ken

And again, I ask, what have we gained from forcing a concentration check in a situation where the underlying die roll for a spell would not normally be considered stressful, and the only reason a stress die is used is because the spell is mastered. There's little in the RAW that I can see that suggests that it was really the purpose to force someone with Magic Addiction and Flawless Magic (or a mastered spell) to control their magic addiction in every. Single. Possible. Situation.

Again, there's letter and spirit of the rules. Here, I'd let the spirit of the rules prevail.

I certainly wouldn't say it was the set upon intention, but it does make sense. It's not like an alcoholic is okay with some drinks.

Well, they kind of are, in some sense. If they realize it was a mistake and go back to the program, go to a meeting. But if they start thinking they can handle it, that's the problem.
But comparisons to real world addictions aren't apt. As the addicted one can absolutely use magic safely, if there isn't a stress die involved.

And an alcoholic can drink soda.

:unamused:

That's all I got to say. Just... :unamused:

Oy.

I've emailed David Chart for clarification and perhaps a fix for the errata.

Like I've said, I think it is the letter of the RAW, but I don't think it's the spirit of the RAW.

Lo, thou corpse of a thread, rise, rise and obey your master!

Did this really take me nearly a month? Apparently it did. I've been thinking about it, and my conclusion is that the spirit of the RAW is the same as the letter. If you take Flawless Magic and Magic Addiction, you roll every time you cast a spell on stage, with the exception of non-fatiguing spontaneous spells. I would definitely handwave downtime spell casting, and the magus would have a reputation for using lots of magic — which is extremely appropriate.

I like the idea that there is off-stage use of magic and that it doesn't necessarily lead to continual checks on addiction (and potential warping due to likely spell botches). The idea that the character would do 10 spells where one would normally do is very appealing and flavorful.

Thank you, sir!

I would add that, even on stage, I might let the player just decide to cast three or four spells instead of one, and not bother with the rolls. After four spells, you're on Int+Conc+9, so the magus is probably going to get himself under control. If the player wants to get the magus under control right away, then he has to roll. (If the player is just casting without rolling, I might even allow formulaic spells at 30, 25, 35, and 20 — it doesn't follow the letter, but it keeps to the spirit. If the player is rolling to try to stop, however, the rules must be followed to the letter.)

Taking Flawless Magic says "I don't want to botch spell casting and get Warping", which should be respected, as should taking "Magic Addiction", which says "I want to cast unnecessarily large amounts of magic". Thus, downtime spell casting should involve too many spells, but should not involve Warping.

We need more of this; thank you David.