The whole thing about optimizing mastery to double resistance and doing +17 Range:Eye to avoid it it pretty lawyery to start with. I say forget RAW and use judgement on how close it is. 
How do we even get +17 damage? ;p Isnt' it +15 to +20?
Which is interesting, because mechanically the difference between Aegis of the Ward 20 or 25 is a mechanical effect that is not dissimilar from damage. Do you get a -10 or a -12 to cast when you're inside the Aegis vs do you take +15 or +20 damage from the spell? Does the variance exist then because of one effect is a BASE effect while the other (damage) is for some reason listed separately per magnitude?
Good point.
That is true - unconscious does allow for an easy throat slitting.
This I am unfamiliar with. I know it was discussed in previous posts, but are there any cannon examples for this? It just a very very powerful effect and I would love to see some sort of precedent.
It is including added magnitude actually - I'm pretty sure the ward against basic dirt is 15 with a sun duration, I've added 2 magnitudes to include both metal and gems. The wards against ignem are measured vs damage oddly enough, so a ReIg 25 ward for example will protect against pilum but not against BoAF. Serf's/Noble's/Pharaoh's Parma whatever I need to say as I dont have the books within reach.
This I am unfamiliar with. I know it was discussed in previous posts, but are there any cannon examples for this? It just a very very powerful effect and I would love to see some sort of precedent.
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Wind of Mundane Silence though taking down a Parma isn't all that likely. You first have to penetrate, then you need to beat double Parma skill * 5 on a stress die + spell level. By the time you can put something that large through Parma, there are probably better things you could be casting.
Other that Wind of Mundane Silence, which is not the best example in the world (because it is desgned to target any magical effect and so is inefficient by necessity), the most obvious example so far is the Perdo Parma effect invested into Cultellus by Conscientia, Magi of Hermes, p. 31
If you find that this is too easy, you're not alone, but never the less that is RAW.
EDIT: corrected rather embarrasing spellie
So thats is a PeVi effect to remove parma? Wow. Is it of a significant level at least?
It follows the core ArM5 guideline for dispelling a particular type of magic. Essentially it's the WoMS guideline without the /2.
Chris
Not really.
Looking at Wind of Mundane Silence, we learn that a Parma Magica is dispelled as if it were a effect of level (Parma Magica score x5).
I think that's too easy, but that's RAW. Atleast you have to penetrate.
...which is why I have a character who invented a spell like that purely to get resistance mastery for it.
So it's unraveling the form thingy. So:
Dispel effects of a specific type with a level less than the (level +4 magnitudes) of the Vim spell + stress die (no botch).
PeVi, Range Voice, target individual, Base Effect
Dispels existing Parma on the target. (Parma score X 5) must be less than or equal to Spell level + 10 + d10?
Are you serious?! Wow. A level 20 spell will bring down Parma Magica 6? that is a bit ludicrous. Talk about the number one candidate for every person to have a level 1 variant of with Mastery 1 (Magic resistance) - this is ridiculous. Hell - I don't even need PeVi, my Labtotal from Magic theory and aura should allow for a quick learning of PeVi1 spell...
Now if I can actually cast PeVi with a good amount ... is it the Reaving spell mastery? So you can take that level 20 spell, add 3 levels of mastery, one of which is that one that adds 3 X mastery level to intensity of the dispel effect, therefore almost guaranteeing that the level 20 spell can take down parma magica 8 (It'd be spell level + 10 + (3 X mastery) +d10). Fast Cast, Multiple Casting, Magic Resist, Reaving (or whatever it's called). Thats 5 copies of a spell designed to take down parma magica 8 or lower - ugh. Maybe it doesn't sit with me very well, is because it has turned PeVi into the "gateway to getting any other TeFo through".
Sam W.
Repeat after me... penetration.
That person with Parma 6 has an MR of 30+Vim score. Which means you need to have a 20th level WoMS (this makes it automatic, ignoring the die roll of variability) with a CS of 51 +Vim score, again if you want it automatic. It's not as easy as you propose...
Not only is not that easy, anything is possible if you one-trick monkey a Hermetic Magi. I'd be a bit predisposed to have a mountain accidentally fall on a PC who did that. Although the resistance mastery thing is a pretty slick idea that most folks should take advantage of if they're planning to combat other magi.
Um I believe the rules say you"d need a minimum of a 60th level WoMS or a 30th level dispel parma spell to take a Parma of 6 down. I suppose I could see some way to do it involving intangible tunnel + wizards communion. If you've got an arcane connection and a bunch of magi for a wizards communion I have to wonder why you don't just fry the magus in question through there parma.
Well, you are almost correct, it has to penetrate and WoMS level + stress die must be greater than or equal to double of Parma Magica x 5. So it is possible that a 30th level WoMS silence brings down Parma of 6, it is unlikely. However, a 50th level (and therefore not a ritual) could do it with some reasonable chance, but then you need CS of 81+Vim. This is becoming harder and harder, or requiring high degree of luck, or a specially focused character.
Sometimes the goal isn't to destroy but to weaken and threaten...
The above posters have missed a couple of points:
a) You don't need WoMS, as it was revealed to me earlier in this thread (just above). There exists, by RAW, a perfectly viable specific method of taking down Parma at much easier difficulty.
b) Saying "it needs to penetrate" isn't of any value. Everything that targets the magus specifically needs to penetrate, who cares. The point is, for a fairly lower level spell - you can then penetrate with whatever you want afterwards. It just points to the efficacy of this style of magus. Take for example, Philpus Niger, Minor Magical Focus of dispelling effects; a flambeau archmage. As someone has obtusely pointed out, you have to penetrate, and most archmages would be significantly challenged when attempting to penetrate the parma magica of a fellow ancient magus, especially when you consider a spell of higher magnitudes. I'm sure we agree on this point.
Enter a specialist in dispelling (unlike any other magus - who wouldn't even consider the feasibility of slipping anything over magnitude 4 or so past a Parma Magica 6+), this magus can easily do so, assuming he gets his Level 20 PeVi to penetrate. So, basically, while every other magus has to play to their strengths, and really consider boosting a TeFo combination to considerable levels so that it can be viable against other Mages (lets not approach the aimed spell convo as that has its own strengths/weaknesses), the PeVi specialist has the the significant advantage of not having to worry about penetrating Parma Magica, due to this proficiency.
How powerful is this? Well, maybe when it is introduced in this saga im running I'll notice first hand; maybe it is a needed boost to the PeVi TeFo? Or maybe TeFo was good enough as is... we'll see. I am pretty sure when first being on the receiving end of this, the next lab season I'll have 4 magi researching a very simple PeVi1 version, at the very least.
Yes. Getting something past Parma 6 + Art score isn't easy. This isn't news to anyone. Every mage is faced with this problem - if you want to get something past a high Parma, you need a high CS.
It's the fact that getting a level 20 spell past Parma + Art then allows you to get anything you want past that Magi. So while every other TeFo combo only benefits itself, PeVi now allows you to get anything you can cast with some competence through your target's defences, because you're removing your targets Parma. Considering how central Parma is to the formation of the Order, it's stability, it's survival and it's policies; I find this a rather simple method of circumventing it. We're not talking strictly combat here - where a PeIg10 chilling spell may allow you to knock a mage out due to fatigue loss, or a sleep spell or so... but anything is on the table. That Level 30, 40, 45, whatever insidious effect you wanted to work that would previously have been impossible due to the need to get 80 or 90+ CS? Nope - it's available now.
Recent material has suggested that the Parma's strength is allowing gifted magi to coexist without being supernaturally driven to murder each other. Parma's nice and works to keep down the damage from Hedge Wizards and creatures with might scores. Magi have so many options if they want to fry you though. You can use wizards communion to try and drop something at range with a horribly high penetration total. An arcane connection and a penetration skill of 5 is going to give an attacker a huge boost. For that matter lab totals can get quite high. A magus might be able to put 20 levels of penetration (+40 penetration) into an item with a damaging spell. An Aegis helps some. Then again I suspect there are Flambeau magi out there with Parma's of 10+ (highly unlikely to be breached by any creature with might outside of a realm and raised to that level for just that reason).
Fast cast spontaneous magic is probably a better defense than parma. I wonder if there are an Flambeau magi out there with Diedne magic. That could have story implications.
The effect is identical, the strength in it is not. Which is why creating fire on target X is the same effect regardless if it causes +15 or +17 damage.
Just as a Rego action to move something at a distance is the same wether it moves it at 5kph or at 10kph.
You simply pick it and decide what base level it is. Guidelines are very specifically not all-inclusive and even RAW states that you do not have to stick to full magnitudes for spell levels.
[strike]Assuming that they don't re-activate their Parma in a subsequent round.[/strike]
There is no denying that knocking down somebody's Parma is a great first hostile move. And if you've got Arcane Connections handy, then you don't necessarily need a very high Casting Total.
However, it does mean that whatever your actual damaging attack is, will only take place in a subsequent round (or you need a colleague to nuke your target after his defences are down).
There is plenty of other satisfying aggravation that you can cause if you have sufficient Penetration to get an arbitrary Level 20 spell through your opponent's Parma. If it is cast with sufficient Penetration, even something as staid as receiving a round of multi-cast Pilum of Flames to the head is often very bad news for a magus. Or a Diameter version of Blessing of Childlike Bliss. Or ... [plenty of other options].
The real issue is that even magi with good Parma Scores are vulnerable to competent attack from other magi. There are plenty of different attack methods. This is a feature not a bug.
It takes two minutes to re-activate Parma (ArM5 page 85), presumably without being able to do other things simultaneously. So this is a serious disadvantage.
Oops misremembered that.
Anyway, doesn't change the main point. Having your Parma dispelled is likely a disaster, sure. But it is just one of many disasters that can equally easily befall a magus.