Magic Weapons and MR

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

In another discussion Xavi said:

This is an issue that I am happy with.

Think about those weapons of myth, Thor's Hammer, Excaliber, and so on. How many of them were forged by Wizards in towers? I'm thinking not too many.

Effects with huge penetration are only one way to get a superior weapon. They are IMHO the least efficient.

The simplest and IMHO most efficient way is to use the rules from City and Guild for weapons of exceptional quality. A legendary weapon smith (skill 9+) working with good materials in a good workshop with an assistant can generate items that provide huge bonuses, and aren't magical at all. Think about those weapons of myth, how many were created in this way? To my recolection darn near all of them. This option is open to Verditious. In fact a Verditious crafter gets bonuses to his lab total because of his crafting skill.

Another option is the items of quality mystery whereby a Verditious magus can use magic to bring forth the mundane qualities of the ideal form. Also not magical and also providing huge bonuses. I susspect that items of quality bonuses may be stackable with crafting bonuses for absurdly powerful weapons but I'd have to double check the rules.

A third option is to enchant effects that target the weilder rather than the tool. Inrtellego effects that give the weilder insight, muto corpus effects that give the weilder strength or speed, Muto mentem effects that give the weilder the mind of a killer, these are all unresisted. They don't conform to myths but they do make excellent story fodder.

Weapons blessed by the divine I see as provideing the protection of faith, the courage to do the right thing and perhaps a moment of inspiration for strikeing at the right time and place. The first two of these effects aren't resisted and the third can be constructed in such a way that it isn't either.

What myths do we loose? We loose the flameing blade of the Witch King as he enters Minas Tirith. We loose the sword +2 (giant slayer) from AD&D as a simple enchantment, instead it becomes a difficult tool to create and the product of master smiths and Wizards working together.

Do we loose anything else?

2

To continue the thought experiments a little...

Rego Craft Magic. How can a magus create an Excellent quality weapon? And then treat it as an item of Quality as per the Verditius myster?

Let's make the subject a sword.

Init: 2 Atk: 4 Def: 1 Dam: 6

It also has an S&M bonus of +4 Harm human or animal bodies

Let's assume a self-confident Verditius with Perception of 2, Dexterity of 2 and a Puissant Armourer ability of 7+2, Philosophiae of 4, and Finesse of 5.

The Verditius could either attempt to forge the sword himself using his Workshop total or he could attempt to use Rego Craft Magic.

I'm not sure how the Workshop translates across for Magi and their lab totals. I'm assuming that we'd have to treat their lab as a basic workshop and they could spend time and resources on improving it separately from their lab improvements.

Page 67 of City & Guild lists the Craft Level for Excellent items as 15. In this case, his workshop only has a Workshop Total of 11, so not enough to create an Excellent item, let alone getting nine over the 15 to allow the maximum bonus of +3.

If we look at page 49 of Covenants we can see that Rego Craft Magic would require a Perception + Finesse roll of 18 in order to create such a weapon. But would this be enough to confer the bonus for being Excellent?

Someone will have to come back and fill in the gaps for me on those points but for now I'll just assume that the +3 bonus has been earned.

The sword now, I think, has the following stats (as the bonus adds to attack and defence):

Init: 2 Atk: 7 Def: 4 Dam: 6

So, with this Excellent sword now ready, the magus sets about bringing out its innate qualities.

He spends a season and a pawn of Vis. He brings out the +4 harm humans or animals quality. This is (effectively) added to the sword's Atk. statistic (it isn't really, it's actually a roll modifier). What we end up with is:

Init: 2 Atk: 11 Def: 4 Dam: 6

That's a mighty sword in anyone's language.

But the hard part (discounting getting a Verditius to teach you his mysteries) is forging the Excellent sword in the first place. It isn't clear how a magus' lab could/should be treated in terms of a workshop. Does the magus' inherent magic aid in this? How does the magus raise his Workshop total high enough to create an Excellent blade?

3

Well, I think we can quite safely put the Norse mythology swords in the category of "ignore MR" stuff.

Not forged by magicians but still magical in most cases. In fact, magicians are extremely rare in myths and almost never important for forging stuff; that is reserved to dwarves faeries and gods. That makes me think that "we see few stuff made by mages in myth2 is a poor benchmarking category here.

A sword enchanted in ANY way (including with spells that affect the wielder WILL BE resisted by MR according to the OFFICIAL rules!!! The fact that exist FAQ entries here do not apply. They are unofficial patches. Bear that in mind whensuggfesting magical swords of any kind. It is the famous polka dot issue. IMS edge of the razor swords are not resuisted, but that is IMS stuff, not official rules. :slight_smile:

Cheers,

Xavi

4

There have been plenty of parma arguments before how did I fail to see that this would turn into another?

The position that the "OFFICIAL" rules claim that any enchanted item is resisted whether or not it has active magic on it (that is what you're saying isn't it) is based on a single line of text, can't be adjudicated, and does not mesh with the rest of the magic resistance rules.

5

I'll have more ideas forthcoming, but I wanted to throw something out:
*Using ReTe on a sword to make it sharper makes it magical = MR applies.
*Using CrCo on the same sword to make the wielder stronger also grants a damage bonus; same game effect but the sword is still magical so MR applies.
*Giving that character a belt that enhances his strength, Thor-style; and a nicely-made-but-mundane sword, would NOT be blocked by MR, right? The character is under a magical effect but the weapon isn't?

6

Here's where we disagree.

7

I agree with Erik on this one.

The magic isn't directed (strength) at the swords target..therefore it isn't resisted. If this were the case, a magi would have to drop his resistance to pick up any magical device (except his Talisman of course)

My two Pawns worth...

8

Well, it is still there as a rule :slight_smile: Maybe a badly constructed one, but it is there. And it is at the base of my concern on MR for items.

In myths tyhat feature magic weapons, "extremely sharp" or "cannot be sheathed without killing someone" swords are quite common. Those sound like perfect hermetic-like effects that affect the sword and the target of the sword, so MR would apply.

"Being with Erik" is just saying that you agree that the official rules are badly thought at this point. I also do, BTW :slight_smile: Hence the HR that most of us seem to be applying. No biggie, but it is a small problem with the rules as written. Easily handwaved, but still there for discussions on the official rules.

Cheers,

Xavi

9

Here is a thought.

Rego magic can duplicate the effects of a workman.

Therefore with rego you can sharpen a sword.

A sword, once sharpened, is no longer magical, much as a house rego from piles of timber and nails, is no longer magical.

Therefore you could create an effect that sharpens the sword, the trigger for the effect could be to draw it from its scabbard.

This would cast a spell on the sword of instant duration, which should then allow you to mess up the other guy without worrying about MR (since its not under a spell).

The question is, how sharp can you rego something, how long does the sharpness effect last and how much extra damage would the extra sharpness provide? Edge of the Razor is only +2. Would +1 be acceptable? Surely you'd get some benefit from having a newly sharpened sword.

10

My opinion is that this is not a rule, merely sloppy language open to misinterpretation. The text where it says that enchanted devices are resited refers only devices which have an active magical effect on them not all enchanted devices

It could also be a description of that +11 attack non-magic sword described by Mark.

11

How about a momentary "edge of the razor"? Makes the sword sharp and then leaves it to "naturally" dull. After a few rounds in a fight it won't be as sharp as it was, so it would drop to +1, near the end of the fight it would be +0 or even -1. However your enemy's sword will start at 0 then go to -1, then -2 as it dulls. It may be more of a club than a blade by the end of a fight.

12

A non magic sword, while useful is no longer an item open to discussion. At least I was not refering to those in my post.ñ I was refering to weapons that are inherently magical by definition. Mark's sword is simply an extremely well number crunched mundane item regardless of it being made in a magical workshop. It would obviously not be resisted and it is a perfect example of a good and really useful item to have around, but it is circumbenting the original intent of the coment you quoted :slight_smile: Fine but not exactly fair :slight_smile:

Unles you wanted to stress that magi are the best mundane craftsmen around. Takes most of the magical feeling out of the equation for me, and that is half of the fun of ArM, so we will have to agree to disagree.

Right now magic items with active magics on them, as you say, are resisted, and this I find to be debatable in game terms. Magic swords should not be stoped that easily. But as said, we'd better agree to disagre.

About swords, historically it seems they were used more as clubs than anything in any case. The edge was simply to add a smaller area of impact, so the concusion was more focalized. But slicing stuff up is not what most of those weapons did in real terms, even if it sounds cool on stories :slight_smile:

Cheers,

Xavi

13

I think that we're agreeing to disagree.

my point was that all of those weapons from myth that helped to kill dragons giants and malefic spirits may have been non magical (or cleverly enchanted / divinely blessed to target the weilder).

14

Fair point. Never looked at them in that light. It is an option, for sure, though. However, from my recollections Arthur's scabbard was enchanted to affect him, but not so much Excalibur herself, for example. I prefer to think that magical swords from myths are... well, magical :slight_smile: Items of awe because they can do funky stuff that mundane items will never be able to do, regaqrdless of how crafty the people that made them are.

Cheers,

Xavi

15

They probally are, just assume they are not hermetically magical. ie:runes or other lost mysteries that ignore magic resistance

16

Personally, I would have said items acquire a might score, and run them like relics. The might can come from whatever real the weapon does, will give the weapon a base penetration, and can be used to power mystical effects.