Magical coinage

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

I want to have a covenant make (and use) Vis coins; the concept is a colored, imprinted, baked clay coin (very much like a heavy casino chip). The color & imprint denote both the amount and type of Vis in each coin; and if the Vis is consumed or otherwise removed, the coin crumbles into dust. Perhaps the coin (while charged with Vis) tingles a little when held.

Coins would be predominantly one color around the edge (to mark denomination -- one partial pawn (maybe one fifth) of Vis White, one full pawn (five fifths of a pawn) of Vis Red, five pawns Blue, ten pawns Green, etc) with shallow scallops (outlined in white) of contrasting color to denote the type of Vis. The center on one side would be a roman numeral of the denomination (with small surrounding text), the other side (also with small surrounding text) a symbol of the type of vis. The text is typically the minting covenant, their motto, a year, 'Order of Hermes' and the tribunal of the minting covenant.

How would I go about doing this? Enchanted items cannot hold raw Vis, so that is out. Can lesser enchanted items hold Vis? Would it work to cast spells (perhaps with the duration Until: vis is consumed) on the lump of raw, wet clay, and then form/glaze/fire it? Obviously it needs to cost no (or at least very little) Vis to make the coins, or it is not worth it. Spells to move & concentrate Vis from the native material to the clay of the coin are pretty easy; and to some degree the native material might be powdered & mixed into the clay.

What new spells would need to be developed? What existing spells / guidelines would be useful?

2

I’d normally think a charged item could work. I don’t think you can use one here though, as you’d need a linked effect to have the coins both detect if they are holding vis and to disintegrate when they no longer have any vis.

Alternatively, a large Until ritual could probably work if you can convince your story guide that an intelligo vim effect can be used as part of Until. Something like

While Vis Remains - force a pile of dirt infused with vis into the shape of a pile of coins. The spell keeps the dirt in the shape of coins until vis is removed from each coin. ReTe 30 (Base 3 very unnatural control of dirt, +1 touch, +4 Until, +2 group)

It would be far from free, costing 6 pawns of vis, but you can convert up to 100 cubic paces of dirt, more than you’d need for almost any amount of vis.

Doubly alternatively, befriend a faerie who can encase vis. Then, they can create any shaped coins you desire out of glamour, and when the vis is used or removed the coins will fade to dust (or leaves, or some other junk).

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3

I wonder if I could make each perfectly circular coin a 'Ring' for duration and a 'Circle' for target; with a InVi "sense the nature & amount of Vis in this object" (base 4 sense nature of Vis, +4 sense amount of Vis, +1 Range: Touch, +2 Duration: Ring, +0 Target: Circle -- level 30?) & a MuTe "transform this fine dust & colored glaze into a brightly colored baked-clay coin depending on the results of the InVi spell" (base 2 change properties, +1 Range: Touch, +2 Duration: Ring, +0 Target: Circle -- level 5?) spells linked together. They both expire when the targeted Vis leaves the ring (the outside edge of the coin).

Two questions: 1} How can spells be linked like this without creating an Enchanted Item (I assume some kind of MuVi is involved), and 2} how to do this on a bunch of coins simultaneously instead of having to cast on each one singularly.

I would rather not involve a faerie if I do not have to; a solution involving only Hermetic magic is strongly preferred.

4

In theory you could do it using a Watching Ward, as those can have Intellego spells in them that act as triggers for other effects. If you had a group target and enough magnitudes for size (and preferably a Mercurian caster with Imbued with the Spirit of Vim) you might even be able to do it in a way that was only expensive rather than hideously expensive.

5

You could make an invested item.

It needs the following effects:

  • An effect that turns raw clay into baked clay coins (ReTe) its craft magic so you would likely need an operator.
  • An InVi effect to determine the type of vis
  • An InVi effect to determine the amount of vis
  • Lastly, and here we get into houserule/YSMV territory - A ReVi(An,Aq, Co,He,Te), effect to transfer the vis from whatever it was before and into the the clay chip/coin.

Depending on your group it might be possible to make a single InVi effect to detect both the type and amount of vis.

Whether or not you can use ReVi to move vis like I am suggesting is a probably a troup decision. To me this is similar enough to what you do with the spell "gather the essence of the beast" but to others it might not be. The casting requisites are to allow the vis-transfering spell to work on materials associated with those forms, so my spell would take vis stored in materials derived from either, Aquam (magic water), Animal (animal products), Corpus (bone fragments etc), Herbam (plant products) and Terram (stones and friends) and put them into a clay disc.

The way I imagine the final item you have something like a minting machine with a big hopper for clay on top and a smaller hopper for vis on the side and some weird optical-lens thingies to "look into" the machine. Then you chuck clay and vis in the proper hoppers and the thing gets going. You get a readout on a counter telling you how much vis there is and a colored light telling you what type of vis it is. The operator then reads from a series of diagrams what to print the discs with and inputs it via a series of knobs and dials and the machine does its thing minting the coins.

The diagrams are not strictly a part of the item. They are merely guides since it is theoretically possible to print e.g. 1 Muto vis coins and label them as 10 Terram vis coins or fail to label them or whatever. The diagram helps people know what motif to print on what coins. The knobs and bits that "tell the machine what to do" are merely cosmetics. In truth the information about what to comes from the concentration and focus applied by the operator.

This design of course entirely hinges on whether you allow transfer of vis like this with a version of Gather the essence of the beast (or another spell).

The actual appearance of the item is arbitrary except that it needs some way for you to feed it clay discs and vis and it needs to be able to provide the information about what type and amount of vis it is treating.

You could also split the functions up. i.e. create one machine that creates stamped clay discs, one that determines the type of vis, one that determines the amount of vis and one that transfers vis into the appropriate discs.

6

Two problems with 'Watching Ward' -- first, as a ritual it is (as you noted) hideously expensive; especially if you need one casting per coin. Second; Watching Ward seems to operate backwards from what I need -- nothing happens until 'trigger', then it casts a spell. What I need is more akin to an ongoing effect, that stops at 'trigger' (Vis used or moved away). It might be made to serve; but it seems like a very difficult place to start from.

My current thinking is to start by combining InVi 5 'Scales of Magical Weight' (Base 4 Judge amount of Vis present, +1 Range: Touch) and InVi 5 'Sense the Nature of Vis' (Base 4 Discern the art of Vis, +1 Range: Touch) into InVi 25 'Scrutinize Vis' (Base 4 Judge amount of Vis present, +4 Discern the art of Vis, +1 Range: Touch).

Develop a variant of 'Scrutinize Vis' with different target & duration:
InVi 35 'Ring of Vis made known' (Base 4 Judge amount of Vis present, +4 Discern the art of Vis, +1 Range: Touch, +2 Duration: Ring, +0 Target: Circle) -- cast on some amount of Vis inside a Ring & Circle, accurately informs caster of art & quantity of Vis inside the circle; if all the Vis is used up or moved out of the Ring, the spell ends.

Then develop a variant of 'Ring of Vis made known' to moderately affect Vis-containing dust inside the Ring: InVi(MuTe) 45 'Imprint of the Honest Coin' (Base 4 Judge amount of Vis present, +4 Discern the Art of Vis, +1 Range: Touch, +2 Duration: Ring, +0 Target: Circle, +1 Mu requisite, +1 Te requisite) -- cast upon some amount (about 1/3 ounce) of Vis-containing dust, forms that dust into a (39mm / 1.6 inch diameter) baked-clay coin displaying appropriate Art & denomination, until the Vis is used up or removed from the ring. The (pre-formed) narrow clay ring which serves as the Ring & Circle is incorporated into the resulting coin.

This still requires a casting per coin, but at least it is not a ritual; mastery might allow multi-casting. I would still need to have the Vis moved from it's native form into a pile of clay-dust; but this doesn't seem as difficult -- TMRE page 40 has ReVi 25 'Divide the Gathered Essence' which is pretty close.

7

To be honest I'm not sure I get it? The crumbling of the coins is purely cosmetic, I don't see the need for any spell, enchantment, etc.

  • Make a clay coin with the correct denominantion, color, shape, date, covenant name, etc;
  • Move the required amount of vis to the coin through the usual means;
  • Say that the coin crumbles when used;
  • That's it.

If you really need this to be a mechanical thing, maybe a new virtue, obtained through Original Research?

Numismatist (minor, hermetic)

A virtue researched by a magus from House Mercere.

  • An Hermetic Numismatist can create vis coins using X time. Vis coins are shaped as such and such, and crumble when used.
  • He can measure the amount and flavor of raw Vis by touch.
  • He can also instantly discern, by touch, if a vis coin is a forgery.
  • (Add as many more features as you need to make this worth a minor virtue)

You could also make this a standard option for hermetic magic. It seems to be something pretty minor IMO.

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8

I think most of this is addressed already. If I recall correctly (and this is from memory, so I may miss something):

  1. Vis can be transferred from one object into another.
  2. The objects are not much affected by this, even the original.
  3. Expending the last pawn in an object destroys it. Expending is not the same as transferring.
  4. How much vis an object can hold depends on its size and material, per the table.

Second, I realize an enchanted item cannot be used as a vis bank ordinarily - objects have a limited capacity, all of which is filled by enchantment, but that does not mean a specific effect cannot hold vis. Something like a battery or capacitor. ReVi, probably.

I am not sure that such an effect would be useful, though. Transferring vis is a relatively minor chore.

An item that did it for you, though, would be useful. A balance, possibly.

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9
  • Make a clay coin with the correct denominantion, color, shape, date, covenant name, etc;
  • Move the required amount of vis to the coin through the usual means;
  • Say that the coin crumbles when used;
  • That's it.

Sure; maybe this could just be hand-waved -- but the color, denomination, and fact that the coin crumbles are all security features which make forgery more difficult. Simply declaring by fiat that 'these coins are absolutely secure and there is no way to make a valueless fake' is kind of a big hand-wave, though

10

Then I must ask, do these coins have any purpose that is not common to simple vis?

Magi already trade goods and services in vis, and they have ways to ascertain quantity and flavor. Even a recently gauntleted magus can spont a spell to give him basic information. Color and denomination don't really help that much, unless you have no other way to ascertain the real value of the coins. If you re a mundane, for example. But then, mundanes don't usually trade in vis, and we go back to the question: is there any greater purpose for these coins?

Also, notice that I'm not just handwaving things, except for the crumbling of the medium when the vis is expended. All of the other are just a proposed 'minting' process. As for the crumbling, while there is some handwave, I don't think it's unreasonable.

Also, I'm not saying you couldn't counterfeit a coin. Make a coin with the desired denomination (and all the indiative signs), use a CrVi spell to make it seem like a vis-coin and there you have it. Then again, you don't want the coin itself to tell you it is fake. You want either a device, or a magi (or an hermetic numismatist) to tell you the fake coins from the real coins. But then again, your initial question was about making the coins, not about ensuring they can't be forged.

To clarify the original question: what you want is a way for magi to create a vis-coin that can't be falsified and is readily identifiable for anyone, even someone with no capability to spont a lvl 4 InVi spell. Is that it?

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11

To clarify the original question: what you want is a way for magi to create a vis-coin that can't be falsified and is readily identifiable for anyone, even someone with no capability to spont a lvl 4 InVi spell. Is that it?

Can not be easily falsified, yes -- I want the coins to be reasonably trustworthy, but cannot think of a way (short of furious hand-waving) that makes them absolutely secure.

Trusted by someone who can not spontaneously cast a level 5 InVi spell (both 'Scales of Magical Weight' and 'Sense the Nature of Vis' are level 5) without fatigue; yes -- not everyone will be able to muster a 25 InVi total. If it becomes essential, lots of magi can muster an InVi total of 10, if they do not mind expending two fatigue per coin.

12
  1. Vis can be transferred from one object into another.
  2. The objects are not much affected by this, even the original.

I would like to discourage transferring Vis out of a coin without destroying (or at least affecting) the coin

  1. Expending the last pawn in an object destroys it. Expending is not the same as transferring.

This solves one potential problem, but I don't remember where in the rules this comes from -- do you have a citation handy?

  1. How much vis an object can hold depends on its size and material, per the table.

This could be a serious stumbling block, especially for larger denomination coins; I seem to remember (maybe Hermetic Alchemy?) something that allowed transferring arbitrary amounts of Vis, and may have allowed the form/size capacity to be ignored, but I can not point to it in the rules.

Second, I realize an enchanted item cannot be used as a vis bank ordinarily - objects have a limited capacity, all of which is filled by enchantment, but that does not mean a specific effect cannot hold vis. Something like a battery or capacitor. ReVi, probably.

A 'Vis Battery' would be very useful -- but would quickly become a prime target in conflicts.

I am not sure that such an effect would be useful, though. Transferring vis is a relatively minor chore.

An item that did it for you, though, would be useful. A balance, possibly.

I was thinking of a merchant's scale, enchanted with 'Scale of Magical Weight', would be useful for magical trades, and pretty much ignore silver & gold on either side.

13

Corebook pg. 80, but this only applies to raw vis. It's actually explicitely stated that this doesn't happen to an artificial receptacle, so my previous idea of having the magical coins erode as default is, indeed, pushing things a bit (but I stand by what I said earlier, it seems to be something pretty minor).

What is the largest denomination you want? If using metals, up to 10 pawns seems doable with a coin made of gold.

Why not just use standard vis? I'm actually curious about what in your scenario requires the usage of these coins instead of going with the standard, and the answer could very well help to flesh out the method. Is this a specific need of a particular covenant in your saga? A change of assumptions for the whole of the Order? A need that arose from a particular problem your magi has encountered?

14

I'd been thinking that the Watching Ward would be causing the crumbling, not the manufacture. So you'd make and fill the coins naturally, then have spells in the watching ward that detected the amount and art of the vis currently in them and destroyed the coin if it was no longer the preset values.

That solves "how do you make the coin crumble if it's no longer what it says it is" but not "how do you prevent someone else making a bunch of identical coins that just don't have the ritual or vis in them" problem. Unfortunately checking that the coin actually has a valid spell is probably harder than checking it has the vis.

I'd been thinking of doing a bunch of coins with a single ritual, on the assumption that you could make a load of Watching Wards simultaneously with a Group target (+ size magnitudes). Thinking about that more that might be more challenging than I'd first thought, as Watching Ward is sufficiently non-Hermetic-standard that it's not clear that you can do a Group target version of it - although given that a Room target version exists, it would probably be possible to develop one without a massive amount of difficulty if it doesn't already exist. Filling all the Watching Wards might also then be challenging.

15

I defer to Rafael, below.

16

What is the largest denomination you want? If using metals, up to 10 pawns seems doable with a coin made of gold.

I had envisaged up to a Queen of Vis; but honestly that is incredibly impractical. I think including brass dust or granules for denominations up to five Pawns is probably where I may leave it. The smallest denomination is probably a fifth or a quarter of a Pawn, useful in light of the revaluing the text economy thread.

Why not just use standard vis? I'm actually curious about what in your scenario requires the usage of these coins instead of going with the standard, and the answer could very well help to flesh out the method. Is this a specific need of a particular covenant in your saga? A change of assumptions for the whole of the Order? A need that arose from a particular problem your magi has encountered?

Mostly I am just trying to sanity-check this idea. I want to be sure this does not do anything egregiously out-of-bounds.

I think it might have uses with Companions (and perhaps exceptional Grogs) to occasionally pay them a pawn (or a fractional pawn) for particularly valuable / magic related services -- those could be accumulated so that they could then barter for Longevity Potions, Fertility magic rituals, minor invested items, etc. They might be nice flavor at Hermetic faires; or in auctions & exchanges of various flavors of Vis. This is quite aside from the fractional-pawns discussed in the revalued book trade, where fractional-pawn coins might be the only reasonable way to handle fractional pawns.

17

I don't think it's out of bounds, but I fail to see the added value. Most magi can easily determine the amount and type of vis. A companion or grog is not likely to walk with any amount of vis in his pockets.

I can see these coins as a natural development, probably from House Mercere, if magi do what we did: stop walking around with gold in our pockets and start to walk with tokens that have no intrinsic value, but have an attributed value.

Check HoH:TL pg. 88. House Mercere uses letters from senior Redcaps, stating a given amount of vis, as legal tender. A magi can use these letters to trade, avoinding walking around with queens in his pockets. The book mentions that these are "easily forged, but the offenders are just as easily found", and the offender would be charged with a high crime (stealing vis).

This works for a small order, but as the order increases in size the investigation in case of forgery gets more difficult, and the Redcaps would find a way to make it harder for someone to forge a note (both mundane and magical ways). Again, IMO, this is only relevant for a note or token without vis. If the coin carries vis, it has intrinsic value that can easily be determined by someone capable of casting a lvl 5 spell, and anyone that can't discern it's value wouldn't deal directly in vis to begin with.

So, I think the idea of a vis coin that degrades when used works, and there are several solutions (I lean towards my early suggestion of OR to develop a special hermetic minting method), but I fail to see how they add anything to the economic scenario. But maybe I'm being shortsighted.

A mundane coin worth a few pawns of vis (or fractional vis), in the other hand, would be a natural and necessary step, IMO, if the Order grows larger. And then you could, sure, have 1 cent of vis used by the grogs and companions at the annual covenant fair (I do agree that this is nice flavor =]).

18

The 'furious hand-waving' you want is casting Scales of the Magical Weight and Sense the Nature of Vis.

No magus is ever, ever, ever going to trade vis without checking with these spells. If they lack these spells, they are an idiot and their pater deserves ridicule. Even hedge wizards can identify vis. Redcaps carry devices to do this, they are trivial to make or purchase.

Just say your tribunal uses coins rather than chess pawns as the standard medium for vis transfer, forget the 'crumbling' part, and maybe introduce a ReTe(Vi) spell that changes the face of a coin to match the Te/Fo of the vis it's holding as an easy shorthand so magi can organize their own vis collection. Other magi will double check, and everyone expects them to do that and isn't insulted when they do so.

Vis trades happen so infrequently it's not an issue. And clay coins are a bad choice, given how easily they would be damaged by casual handling. Even wooden coins would be better.

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19

Yep. I can't understand why anyone would build a magi without those two almost mandatory InVi 5 spell, unless they have magic sensitivity, comprehend magic, or something similar. Hence I'm not sure why anyone would go through the trouble of researching vis coins.

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20

[Just back from serious illness so excuse me if I am a little off]

I am wondering about all the talk of fractional Vis. Only one group in the whole line, listed in Rival Magic, can deal in fractional Vis. So if you want coins with a fractional pawn, then you will have to make contact with the Soqotran Sorcerers and then research a breakthrough based on part of their magic.