Magical coinage

Games Discussion Ars Magica
16

What is the largest denomination you want? If using metals, up to 10 pawns seems doable with a coin made of gold.

I had envisaged up to a Queen of Vis; but honestly that is incredibly impractical. I think including brass dust or granules for denominations up to five Pawns is probably where I may leave it. The smallest denomination is probably a fifth or a quarter of a Pawn, useful in light of the revaluing the text economy thread.

Why not just use standard vis? I'm actually curious about what in your scenario requires the usage of these coins instead of going with the standard, and the answer could very well help to flesh out the method. Is this a specific need of a particular covenant in your saga? A change of assumptions for the whole of the Order? A need that arose from a particular problem your magi has encountered?

Mostly I am just trying to sanity-check this idea. I want to be sure this does not do anything egregiously out-of-bounds.

I think it might have uses with Companions (and perhaps exceptional Grogs) to occasionally pay them a pawn (or a fractional pawn) for particularly valuable / magic related services -- those could be accumulated so that they could then barter for Longevity Potions, Fertility magic rituals, minor invested items, etc. They might be nice flavor at Hermetic faires; or in auctions & exchanges of various flavors of Vis. This is quite aside from the fractional-pawns discussed in the revalued book trade, where fractional-pawn coins might be the only reasonable way to handle fractional pawns.

17

I don't think it's out of bounds, but I fail to see the added value. Most magi can easily determine the amount and type of vis. A companion or grog is not likely to walk with any amount of vis in his pockets.

I can see these coins as a natural development, probably from House Mercere, if magi do what we did: stop walking around with gold in our pockets and start to walk with tokens that have no intrinsic value, but have an attributed value.

Check HoH:TL pg. 88. House Mercere uses letters from senior Redcaps, stating a given amount of vis, as legal tender. A magi can use these letters to trade, avoinding walking around with queens in his pockets. The book mentions that these are "easily forged, but the offenders are just as easily found", and the offender would be charged with a high crime (stealing vis).

This works for a small order, but as the order increases in size the investigation in case of forgery gets more difficult, and the Redcaps would find a way to make it harder for someone to forge a note (both mundane and magical ways). Again, IMO, this is only relevant for a note or token without vis. If the coin carries vis, it has intrinsic value that can easily be determined by someone capable of casting a lvl 5 spell, and anyone that can't discern it's value wouldn't deal directly in vis to begin with.

So, I think the idea of a vis coin that degrades when used works, and there are several solutions (I lean towards my early suggestion of OR to develop a special hermetic minting method), but I fail to see how they add anything to the economic scenario. But maybe I'm being shortsighted.

A mundane coin worth a few pawns of vis (or fractional vis), in the other hand, would be a natural and necessary step, IMO, if the Order grows larger. And then you could, sure, have 1 cent of vis used by the grogs and companions at the annual covenant fair (I do agree that this is nice flavor =]).

18

The 'furious hand-waving' you want is casting Scales of the Magical Weight and Sense the Nature of Vis.

No magus is ever, ever, ever going to trade vis without checking with these spells. If they lack these spells, they are an idiot and their pater deserves ridicule. Even hedge wizards can identify vis. Redcaps carry devices to do this, they are trivial to make or purchase.

Just say your tribunal uses coins rather than chess pawns as the standard medium for vis transfer, forget the 'crumbling' part, and maybe introduce a ReTe(Vi) spell that changes the face of a coin to match the Te/Fo of the vis it's holding as an easy shorthand so magi can organize their own vis collection. Other magi will double check, and everyone expects them to do that and isn't insulted when they do so.

Vis trades happen so infrequently it's not an issue. And clay coins are a bad choice, given how easily they would be damaged by casual handling. Even wooden coins would be better.

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19

Yep. I can't understand why anyone would build a magi without those two almost mandatory InVi 5 spell, unless they have magic sensitivity, comprehend magic, or something similar. Hence I'm not sure why anyone would go through the trouble of researching vis coins.

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20

[Just back from serious illness so excuse me if I am a little off]

I am wondering about all the talk of fractional Vis. Only one group in the whole line, listed in Rival Magic, can deal in fractional Vis. So if you want coins with a fractional pawn, then you will have to make contact with the Soqotran Sorcerers and then research a breakthrough based on part of their magic.

21

The idea of calculating fractional pawns of Vis came from an examination of the book economy of the Order of Hermes; its' beginnings are as a (pardon the pun) bookkeeping convention. It is not suggested that fractional pawns are usable for enchantment, or study, or spellcasting, or other magical pursuits; just that they are used to accurately account for the value of other things which are not Vis. No breakthrough is needed.

If someone wants to use the fractional pawns for magic instead of economics, then they will need a pile of them. Or, as you say, a single fraction & a Breakthrough based on Soqotan magic -- although I think the Soqotans use thirds of a pawn, and we are talking about fourths or fifths here.

22

The issue comes in when you are physically dealing with them (coins containing Vis) rather than writing about them (economics ledger).

Without some breakthrough then there is no way to make fractional "Vis Coins" that actually contain some fraction of a pawn of Vis. The Pawn is the smallest unit of Vis Hermetic Magic can currently interact with. You need a breakthrough to split them smaller.

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23

Do you have a citation for that? I think it is widely assumed, and mages tend to stick with pawns as the smallest unit because it is the smallest magically-useful unit, but I (and it could just be me) cannot recall it being explicit in the rules.

24

The "Spark" is 1/10th of a pawn.

Looking into it more and reviewing old threads, I actually am at a tossup. While there are fractional sources of Vis is early books (50 pairs of bat wings to a pawn in an early Covenant) there is no clarity on if Hermetic Magic can manipulate fractions anywhere. What I mean by this is if it can be used to manipulate the Vis in 10 pairs of bat wings (0.2 pawns total) or fails with less than 50 pairs. Also after that early period the books moved to whole pawns in an object per source (that I could review in the time since your post).

There is also no clarity on if you take multiple fractions of raw sources of Vis you can actually get a usable pawn from them (from say 25 pairs of those bat wings and half a badger liver in which a whole one contains a pawn). While they are both the same Form, they are not the same Vis.

All actual Hermetic usage of Vis must be in whole pawns by the rules though.

This makes it a YSMV point on if Hermetic Magic can manipulate fractional quantities of Vis or not. It also makes it a YSMV point if Hermetic Magic can use a mixed group of fractional Vis from different sources as a whole Pawn. If you wish to use those assumptions in your Saga then that is perfectly fine.

It can actually lead to more complications in tracking Vis. In a game that is already extremely complex though I am generally against things that add more complexity without a major upside.

25

IIRC the canonical covenant of Semita Errabunda has a vis source that is sackfuls of bird poop containing a 2 pawns Auram vis. They have to collect "virtually all of it" to gain the pawns. However if a sack of poop contains 1 auram vis it stands to reason that half a sack contains half a pawn. Though the text is also very explicit that they need to collect all of the poop to get the vis implying that hermetic magic cannot really deal in halves of vis.

though the inference is not nearly as strong as an explicit statement to that effect would have been.

26

Semita Errabunda is one of the "early books" I looked at when I was doing a quick review for my post. While I (obviously) fall into the camp that Hermetic Magic cannot really deal in halves of Vis I can see where some groups might go the opposite way. I do not believe this is something that the writers are actually very interested in clearing up, since there are several post in older threads that straddle the "maybe... possible..." line.

That inference you reached combined with the writers posts is the driving force in why I leaned strongly towards YSMV.

27

Add to the pile of 'this is a toss up, and something that needs to be decided by the troupe...' is The Mysteries (Revised Edition) Page 40: ReVi 25 "Divide the Gathered Essence" which includes the sentence 'The maga may freely choose how the Vis is to be divided." Of course, the prefacing paragraph describing the utility of the spell makes no mention at all of fractional pawns. The spell also leaves vague the point of whether or not the distribution of Vis is limited by the size & material of the receptacles -- I tend to think that the common sense answer is 'Yes, size and material affect capacity', but that is not strictly how this spell is written.

28

Because it doesn't fit their character design?

I can throw a bunch of examples. Lab rat who doesn't expect to come across vis in the world. Anyone in a summer+ covenant where they have items to measure and locate vis. There's a bunch of magi who would expect other people in the covenant to deal with that....

29

Or, perhaps it's not actually the bird droppings, but the act of gathering it that makes the Vis appear?
And if you don't "finish the ritual" (collect virtually all the droppings), it fails to work?

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30

That may well be the case but nonetheless the text is IMO pretty clear that the vis is contained within the droppings. I have posted a quote of the relevant piece of text, as I believe it makes my point clear beyond doubt.

The guano deposited by birds on the covenant itself
yields two pawns of Auram vis every year. Virtually
all of it needs to be collected to get the vis, which is
normally transferred to another vessel. Neither col-
lection nor transfer are popular jobs.

reading this, I see no other possible interpretation than that the poop itself is where the vis actually is. This leaves us with the question of what happens if you divide the poop evenly into 4 containers, since logically each ought to contain half a pawns worth of vis. IMO the most likely option is that the half pawns worth of vis in poop is detectable as concentrated auram vis by hermetic magic (e.g. spells that detect magical residue) but if you try to measure it with a spell that counts pawns of vis, the spell fails to detect any pawns.

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31

Re: the items, as I said - or something similar. Not that I think having 1 enchanted item at the covenant as being the same as having the spell. If the character has a personal item, sure. But unless you're taking redcap virtues, it's not as designing a magi starting with items is normal - you design your magi with spells, items come with the covenant. As to magi not expecting to ever encounter vis, or expecting other people to deal with that, how can I put this? If you're designing a character that doesn't expect to ever adventure, study from vis, use vis in the lab or cast a ritual spell, and never exchange vis with your sodales, you're designing an odd magi. Now I'm sure there are ways to be sufficiently organized to keep stocks of what your pawns are in which items, but it's handy not to have to carry a ledger of your owned vis, all sorted out in different boxes or items so as to be recognizable since you can't verify it's value, and to go back to the premise of this thread, it's really handy to be able to count your money, because that's what vis is to magi, and having to rely on someone else to count vis is next level dysfunctional in my mind. Not that you couldn't decide to skip the spells and rely on spontaneous magic, of course, but it's not something I would usually want to be doing.

32

How do you think the nobles of mythic europe feel? Most of them are relying on servants and advisors to tell them what their money is worth, as they have no feel for the precious metal content of coins, or if they've been clipped. The new idea of "double entry book-keeping" - putting in the ledger how much you paid for something and how much you got for it, to make sure you don't sell at a loss unless forced to - is by no means universal in 1220. "Beyond dysfunctional" economics go with the medieval setting, which is why studying intellego is so rewarding.

33

I think it's likely that the average shilling is worth a shilling and the average pence is worth a pence, and neither are likely to be found in a dead animal body, growing on a tree, or be blown by the northern wind. I also think the average shilling has the shape of an average shilling, whereas some vis pawns are carried in a pawn, others might be carried in a rock, a coin, or a cut rabbit's foot. Which makes the later all the more important to assess, because while mythic europe does have a fair number of coin types, minting rights are still somewhat relatively central enough that it's not the mess it would be if every trader minted their own coin.

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34

I think you are overselling their importance. If I find vis on an adventure, who cares how much it is worth or what it is, if someone can work it out later? Unless one is in a ridiculously vis heavy game, it's rare to use vis picked up on the fly to boost a spell. Most vis is lab work.

In the modern day many people depend on accountants. In the medieval era the noble always had a functionary to deal with their money. Having a magi accountant in the covenant is a reasonable option.

One can trust the magi in the covenant who is measuring the vis, as let's think what happens if the accountant magi lies and skims vis. The accountant magi is drummed out of the convenant, his reputation in tatters, the moment it is found out.

I appreciate character design is what it is, so getting those 2 spells is less than 10% of your spell level allocation. I dislike the meta of it.

For a moderate selection of magi, it just does not fit the way they would approach the world. Many characters have a certain direction, a drive, a focus. Considering the low spell count an early mage has, especially if they want a few level 30+ spells in their main area, even 10 levels spent elsewhere can be too much.

Most young magi will have at least one, if not more, senior magi around them. It would be expected the senior magi would deal with vis and sometime later the magic can learn the InVi spells.

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35

One can trust the magi in the covenant who is measuring the vis, as let's think what happens if the accountant magi lies and skims vis. The accountant magi is drummed out of the convenant, his reputation in tatters, the moment it is found out.

There is also the tiny matter that 'stealing magical power' is a Hermetic High Crime.