Magical CrAnimals

Looking through the base guidelines it appears to be a Level 50 base with requisites in order to use Creo Animal to create a magical animal.
If we assume that this guideline allows the construction of a magical animal as per the guidelines outlined in RoP:Magic the base creature would be size 0 with a Magical might of ten?
Would I be right in then assuming it would be +1 magnitude per size increase of the magical creature? Using the guidelines from RoP:M this would allow a size 2 creature at level 70 or at the same level, a size 0 creature with a magical might of 20?

My storyteller/GM was interested recently in my proposal to combine his settings Druidic Magic virtue (see elemental magic, but replace Ignem and Aquam with animal and Herbam) with a high level of Animal in order to create magical creatures with a variety of interesting abilities without needing absurd scores in the requisite abilities.

Leading on from this question, what about creating magical plants? Same base guide as creatures?

I don't think so. Forums tended to suggest a size increase much better than +1 size per +1 mag, due to the typical increase in Target size being a x10 multiplier in mass. Aim for +1 mag is +3 size ranks.

i.e. a Terram increase and many other forms grant 10x times more material, or allow you to affect 10x more material. Also consider in that the rule which says that each 3 size ranks increased is a tenfold increase in mass. Combined that makes for each +1 mag equaling +3 size.

ArM5, p.18: "Every three points of size represents a ten-fold increase or decrease in mass, ... "

ArM5, p.113: "A base Group contains about as much mass as ten standard Individuals of the Form. This can be split up in any way desired, so it could be two Individuals, each of five times standard size, or ten Individuals of standard size, or ten thousand individuals, each one thousandth of standard size. Every five levels added multiplies the size affected by a factor of ten."

https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/the-break-room/102/1
https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/size-0-to-2/349/1
https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/adaptintg-spells-help-needed-thank-you/8349/1

I've created custom spells based from this interpretation and used then in sagas without concerns. Remember that the flexibility in the transformation needs to be paid for too, like Preternatural Growth and Shrinking pays extra for altering size up and down in the same effect.

A few folk have commented that they prefer less of an increase per mag, and created house rules for it. Its the old YSMV thing.

Can't help too much with the other stuff; except with unfounded opinion.

Did you read the text above the guidelines, in the CrAn box of p. 116?
The first column mainly concerns the Might of created creatures.

Further, the base Idividual for Animal is an animal of size +1 or less, meaning you get that size +1 for free.
Each extra magnitude for size increases maximum mass by a factor of 10 (ArM5, box on p. 113), which is the equivalent of +3 "sizes" (ArM5, p. 192, top of first column, just below the box).
Thus a size +4 beastie should be possible with a single extra magnitude for size.

Not a bad idea, though you'd still have to deal with the Vim requisite somehow.

Got me there - I've never even considered creating magical plants. I suppose so though.

I think than a T: Group to create some beast at same times is avalid point of view. You could create one pair of horses, mare and horse, until +3, i would say (after all, one +1 to size can create/affect one individual until +4 size).

Ah Tellus my good man, thank you for pointing out the bit of text at the top I had read long ago, only to forget.

So a creatures magical might can be a maximum of the level of the spell?
This seems terrifyingly powerful... it IS a huge ritual of course, and the base of 50 is only the tipping point if you want to give it any abilities at all that use anything other than CrAn.

CrAn... hey, I should make some berries that keep animals fed hale and hearty... call them CrAnBerries.

Anyway, thanks for the help and advice.
From the looks of it we could create a creature of up to size 1 with a magical might of 50 using the base guidelines and would then have to factor in requisites. Still, this seems like a promising goal. As one poster has said, creating such a spell with target group would then allow the creatures to breed (theoretically). Being a crafter of magical animals seems to trump being a crafter of magic items both in difficulty levels and scale of reward...

"Yumm ...tasty!" said the dragon :slight_smile:

Sure if you botch :stuck_out_tongue:
As it is, you're the creator, picking attributes and characteristics etc.
"Yum said the dragon" with the temperament of a loyal war horse or hunting dog.

Not without a Rego requisite :wink:

And a Mentem requisite, maybe, for it to say that? I'm not sure. I'd think, given the restrictions on Animal, it'd only have Cunning unless you included said Mentem requisite, because Animal only affects animal minds, not intelligent ones... I could be making that up, though it seems like a decent houserule if so. Not that it needs to be intelligent to be loyal or snack on your enemies, but... Food for thought.

The examples from Hermetic projects got taht. I would say than a plain Mentem requisite just gives Intelligence to magic animals (one requisite of +1 would give powers related to Mentem)

Can it really be that once you meet the CrAn 50 base to create a magical animal, that animal can have might 50 with not further reqs or magnitude bumps. That seems very powerful. Particularly if you then gave it only CrAn abilities. Magic might 50 is very high indeed.

As the ASG of this saga, which I did indeed want to be high magic, magic might 50 seems very high given how hard it is comparably to add abilities (essentially needing other arts as high). Are there any more detailed guidelines for creating magical animals via CrAn and if not might this be a good opportunity for us forumites hammering out some good rules?

Agree, Might 50 seems powerful. The vis cost per casting is significant though, and this is a CrAn/Vi ritual so it needs to have some power beyond the typical. It probably seems very powerful because a typical magical beast at this power level in the rulebooks has a number of spell powers which also should add complexity to the spell, and the MR of the beast makes it very challenging to use with magic.

I do not think a beast created in this manner will have the same range and depth of powers as the rulebook versions or more natural magical creatures, per comparative might. In story I'd say the explanation is the magical beasts have matured their powers of generations, where the conjured beast is being created instantly in finished form. This is because it is a separate effect in the MuAu guidelines to add powers to a creature, and while I could see a single power, maybe two, being added as part of the might score - I can't see that being plausible without adding +mags of complexity for significant powers. The existing guideline should be honored.

Given the level 50 version creates a single animal, go add the extra vis and levels and create a flock/herd/etc to get a variety. That variety should add a +1 mag (something in the Transforming Mythic Europe book about this) but it permits a good variety within the flock. You then might have self-replicating, subservient, intelligent, horses for the dragon to eat.