It is the contrary: there are no guidelines for hermetic magic to grant virtues. Other traditions (gruagachan, natural magicians, soqotrans...) have them, while hermetics do not.
Cheers,
Xavi
Just because there are no guidelines for it doesn't mean it can't be done. It just means there are no guidelines for it... yet. New guidelines come out with almost every supplement and, after all, that's why they are called "guidelines."
Nowhere doe sit say that Parma does not grant flight and invisibility to demon powers either. it is better to play conservative in such issues. Normal guidelines do not allow you to grant a virtue using a meagre Base 1 guideline. And hopefully that will never exist. The only way so far to get extra virtues from quasi-hermetic sources are mystery initiations, quite different from random (small) ritual casting with a few pawns of vis to spare.
Cheers,
Xavi
Most certainly not indeed!
And if it was possible at all, i would probably put a Minor Virtue at Base 55. That would roughly equate getting the Virtue "Increased characteristics" which i think is the closest relevant comparison.
Noliars use of Base 1 is simply outrageously low.
Virtues and flaws are not some inviolable, monolithic block - they have content. I can give someone content of the missing ear flaw with 30 seconds and a small knife. I can give someone the content of the educated virtue by hiring them a good teacher or two for a couple of years. I can give someone the content of the great characteristic virtue with a large CrCo or CrMe ritual by the main book Cr guidelines. And I can give them the content of the rapid convalescence virtue with a somewhat smaller CrCo ritual also by the CrCo guidelines. There is no particular balance between the difficulty of making these changes to characters in play because they are all different things.
Base 1 is what is in the book for giving someone a recovery 3 better than their stamina - take it up with Dave Chart.
Sorry, but in this specific case he's quite right. I see nothing at all that would invalidate using a momentary Creo Corpus ritual to give someone (or a lot of someones) a permanent +3 bonus to all recovery rolls (which is Creo Corpus base 1)... the equivelent of the minor virtue Rapid Convalescence. That said, you could not give someone the minor virtue Tough permanantly at all... though you can mimic it's effects with a Muto Corpus base 15 effect.
It is considered bad form to appeal to the Line Editor in this manner i believe.
If you want to give someone a permanent Recovery bonus using a momentary Creo ritual ,
you should need higher than Base 01 , as per the way characteristics are permanently increased.
Definitely agree that using Creo to improve an animal , plant or human by granting natural Virtues ,
should be possible.
I would still say that that would be CrCo not PeCo, you are bringing the body closer to perfection after all.
No it isnt. Base 2 is. Base 1 is +1.
Thats not the Virtue however, just the equal numbers. My reading of the rules is that it must be given a duration to be "active".
Otherwise there´s totally no reason at all why ANY magi would run around without a minimum of +12 to recovery rolls.
Since they´re not, obviously thats not how it works.
Yes, but it shouldnt be THAT easy. Otherwise everyone would have any and all Virtues.
My comparison based on what it takes to get the equal of Increased Characteristics is much more realistic.
My apologies to all then.
It was the extremely low level that drew my attention in the first place. Conversely using Cr to temporarily boost stats is even harder than doing it permanently! To my way of thinking temporary stat boosts should be Mu and somewhat easier and less limited - there are no guidelines though.
I was expecting more comment on the wisdom of aegis wide rituals when everyones' parma is down.
Anyway, back on topic
Was the ability of salamanders and starfish to regrow lost limbs accepted as possible in the medieval paradigm? If so, a MuCo(An) spell Regeneration of the Salamander could allow the start of replacement bodyparts that could then be brought to maturity with CrCo.
Several Hermetic effects mimic virtues but their doesn't seem to be a general grant virtue guideline like other traditions have. Also other traditions usually grant virtues as a part of "Luck Magic" equating virtues to a part of fate. Which is not a branch of magic that seems well integrated into Hermetic Magic.
Now I'm a firm believer that Hermetic Magic should be the Annie Oakley of magic traditions. Anything they can do we can do better. Of course this often means research and breakthroughs.
Then of course you have to figure out benchmarks for the process. Look at it this way if you want to raise someone from a +3 in a characteristic to a +4 the same as the Great (Characteristic) virtue it would take a level 50 effect. It would be a 55 for +4 to +5 And if you wanted to copy the Improved Characteristics Virtue it would take three separate spells of varying levels. So it's going to be hard.
Now onto a completely different branch of this thread. Wouldn't spells directly effecting bodily humors be Corpus spell not Auquam. I always assumed things produced by the body remained a target of corpus. Like the self cleaning diapers from MoH.
It was certainly known.
Mmm possibly.
Why? Other than general intuition, I can think of no reason that you couldn't make a momentary Creo ritual granting a target a permanent Recovery bonus. In fact, the most sensible thing to do would be create a momentary Creo ritual granting the target a +18 Recovery bonus (base 15, +1 touch) as that would bring the spell up to the minimum ritual level. Under the rules, I see no reason that couldn't be done.
Mind you, I'd never allow it in my saga and frankly I think it just illustrates one of the significant issues I have with the whole concept of momentary Creo rituals... but that's me.
As I read it, with that spell you give everybody in the boundary a +3 recovery bonus for around 6 to 10 seconds, not enough for them to do anything but cast a spell or 2 (fast casting) without the wounds worsening.
It is a bonus to recovery with instant duration, not a permanent duration bonus.
Cheers,
Xavi
The only permanent Creo ritual example in the main book that I can think of is Conjuring the Mystic Tower which is D: momentary and has no level/magnitude adjustment for permanency.
There is also Gift of Reason. CrMe 35
There is The shadow of life renewed CrCo(Me) 75
There is Touch of Midas, CrTe 20 ritual
Your saga, your rules. Make sure to invest a few pawns more and make everybody sharp eyed, light touchy, venus blessed, unaging and tough as well. Talk about superhumans!
IMS this would need to be a continuous effect, and so cause warping. A base 1 guideline giving the similar bonus of a virtue (in fact, use the base 3 for a +12 bonus, since it costs the same) does not fly IMS, and I am happy about it. It breaks my suspension of disbelief
Xavi
My understanding is that permanent gains of virtues or things like permanent bonuses to recovery would be a change to essential nature. Which is a no-no.
Creating something from nothing (Conjuring the Mystic Tower, Touch of Midas) is different than improving something that already has an essential nature.