Magical healing without vis

What sort of proper treatments, not just stopgaps, can be achieved with hermetic magic and no vis? My thoughts:
Recovery check boosters with CrCo
Recovery check accelerators - would the TeFo be ReCo base 15 for directing the body's energies?
Enhanced surgery without tools with ReCo using the craft spell guidelines (dunno what those are)
A CrFo spell that creates stitches designed not to break the concentration on the surgery spell
Call to slumber with duration for anaesthesia
Physician's Eye and Revealed Flaws of MortalFlesh
A duration version of the above to guide surgery.
ReAq(Co) spells to rebalance humors and draw forth poisons - would require medicine rolls.
DEO just in case.

Anything I've missed? Any specifics to add?
Also, how much crossover knowledge is there between the Art of Corpus and the abilities of medicine and chiurgury? Should the abilities get a Co form bonus? Should they grant a bonus when inventing relevant spells or effects?

CrCo. The RAW bonuses to recovery. Best use of CrCo EVER. Much better than the (right now fairly useless since the removal of "boxed" wounds) Chirurgeon's healing touch. Bind wound is extremely useful as well.

InCo to check the problems of the body (plenty of RAW spells about this one)

MuCo. Make the body/bones supple to manipulation/repositioning.
MuCo to break muscle contractures

ReCo to allow manipulation of the body without all the mess you usually make. Blood stops flowing in the wound and stuff like that.

PeCo to get rid of excess humors. Weakens you, but nothing that good healthy food cannot recover.


Would that work? Its putting people asleep, and in normal sleep, you still feel.
Raise the base for it by 1 magnitude to cause unconsciousness instead and it should be fine though.

As its a very unnatural thing to cause, it may be Muto instead, i feel rather undecided on which is truly best.
Possibly you may be able to make it happen with both.
I think it should definitely cause Fatigue for the affected person though. Maybe a lot of fatigue even, more the more the check is accelerated.
Base 15 is probably ok as the lowest level of such an effect(halving time between checks?).

You can probably replace the medicine skill with an InCo spell to exactly detect poisons.

Mmm, i think Xavi added the other things i thought about...

These spells in the grimoire thread use the ReCo 15 base for accelerated recovery and seem to have not attracted objections. Pain, fatigue and hunger are all reasonable side effects of these spells and they're all big enough to cause warping. :smiling_imp:

Any thoughts on whether synergies between medicine and Corpus would be a reasonable house rule?

Don't forget the ReCo chirurgy stuff in A&A.

If you're considering Hermetic magi and not purely Hermetic magic, look at HoH:S - Ex Miscellanea section.

The most powerful are the CrCo rituals when you have either Imbued with the Spirit of (Form) (especially in conjunction with Mercurian Magic) or Holy Magic.


Don't have A&A. :frowning:

Well ill say this, i would object to them now that i have seen them. What people havent noticed, they wont object to. The idea is fine but the degree of acceleration is MAJOR and except for the 3rd spell, doesnt really cause severe problems.

Totally YES for medicine giving a bonus to Corpus. The other way around, probably not as thats handled by any spells you use.

I've just realised, one could give everyone in the covenant Rapid Convalescence for 4 pawns of corpus vis. The base level for +3 to recovery rolls is 1. +1 touch, +4 boundary (the aegis) gives level 10 - up it to 20 for a ritual and tadaa! If you time the ritual to finish at dawn you don't even need to ask your sodales' permission.

If you have to boost it to level 20 anyway, use base 3. Better result

Nice warping source you got there.


Rapid Convalescence is +3 and a general virtue so I reckon it's in the range of human normal and so a momentary-permanent ritual will work. Level 20 instants don't cause warping do they?

The help to recovery needs to be contiinuous, not momentary. Even if it is "in range of humankind" does not mean that it does not cause warping.


the point of the spell is to give everyone affected the bonus permanently - ie they gain the virtue. The magic is not ongoing but the bonus is. Just like the stat increase spells.

Hermetic magic cannot grant virtues. Other magic systems do just that. The base guideline they use is WAY higher than what you are puting here. A virtue (or flaw) is a fundamental parameter of your persona, not some random stuff you found by the wayside :slight_smile:


Nice concept but you also need a duration which will probably up that 20 to 25-35.

For diseases, one of my husband's character has found the way to cure with Perdo magic, actually
using the rule of the 4 humors, each corresponding to one element.
A disease is usually because one of the 4 humors is to much, so you can do a PeAq, PeAu, PeIg or PeTe, following which one is to high.
As it is in Perdo, it is permanent and without vis consumption

Lady merlina, I dunno. Really.

This'd certainly have worked in previous editions, with "creative destruction" and all, but, in 5th, Perdo can only make things worse. Maybe add a Rego requisite, or even Creo (in fact, you're making the character better), I just don't know

This could cause fatigue at low levels, and force aging rolls at higher ones.

It has been made in 5th edition.
I don't see why perdo should always make worse, but you could say that you have to add a requisite in rego.

It is stated that you can't improve anything with Perdo. It is in the perdo description IIRC


Yup it is, that's why I'm not sure this'd work.
Or rather, it'd probably work, but as a ReCo spell, now that I think of it. But serf's parma, so I may be wrong.

That's interesting, and surprising. Could you tell me where? In A&A?

cite please.