Magical Lighting in Labs

Sure you can suggest any house rule! :smiley:

I think it's important to recognize that a Lab's warping score isn't like inflicting warping on a character (or a thing, depending on your stance on that). Some characters/players don't object to warping in their lab (I had a lab that had warping in one saga), and a low score isn't too risky. It's kind of fun giving up some of the certainty that many players seem to have with their characters.

Magical light and heat running constantly affects everything, technically, anything under the influence of a continuous effect is subject to warping. Of course, that's basically impossible to track and manage and putting a warping score on the lab is much simpler. That was my point. We are saying the same things, differently.

Here's the full quote again:

This quote establishes two categories of effects. The author probably intended this list of two to be exhaustive. Unfortunately, permanent Ring spells don't fall into either category--which is why I quoted the earlier passage about multiple castings per season.

It's pretty clear to me that the author didn't anticipate permanent Ring spells. You are absolutely right that they violate the spirit of the rules, but they don't violate the letter. Moreover, the in-game reasoning, about the dangers and fatigue involved in multiple spell castings, clearly doesn't apply to permanent Ring spells. However, since they do violate the spirit of the rules, I'm comfortable with a house rule making them cause Warping, though I need to come up with an in-game justification that actually applies to them.

He was removing the bonuses under the assumption that no work was involved; he explicitly limited his statements to permanent Ring spells. Yes, if we assume your interpretation, there is work involved, but Tellus explicitly rejected that assumption, and so, if you want to argue, you need to argue about that assumption, and limit your response to that one disagreement, rather than pretend he agrees with it.

Everyone agrees that, if work and/or vis is required to avoid Warping, the Virtues are fine as written. Acting as if Tellus is somehow talking about something other than permanent Ring spells is creating the illusion of a disagreement--that is, talking past his point.

Tellus's post was about how to deal with the assumed fact that permanent Ring spells grant lab Virtues for no expenditure of time or vis, one implication of which is that virtually every lab would get the bonus. If your response doesn't incorporate that assumption (even just for the sake of argument), you're not responding to the main point of his post.

I agree I was mistaken about what you believed--because I assumed you were responding to the point that Tellus was making.

As for being provocative...well, yeah. Or more accurately, provoked. You've repeatedly responded to both Tellus and me in a way that talked right past the points we were making, apparently because you believed we shared with you an assumption that we don't share. I could dismiss that as simply obtuse, but I keep pointing it out, and you still talk right past our points. That's frustrating.

Scott

Yes, but I wasn't intending to be provocative. And as much frustration you felt, I probably felt the same. I still didn't use deliberate language designed to provoke. Perhaps it's a matter of writing style, or perhaps I am, as you said, obtuse.

Jonathan, I'm pretty sure you didn't mean to be provocative. I'm just frustrated, and not having a great day in the first place. But having someone talk past me is a pet peeve of mine, because unnecessary argument drives me batty.

I'm still not sure what to do about my saga, and it will depend on the opinions of the other two players. I'm inclined though to rule that permanent Ring spells add to the lab's Warping score. As an in-game justification, I'll say something like, despite the effective permanence of the spell, the magic involved in a Ring spell is very fluid (indeed, any spell-casting involves "fluid vis"), and that therefore it leads to Warping, where an invested device, with "cooked vis", wouldn't.

Scott

Circle spells increase warping. Nothing new here, it is in the RAW after all, under the provision for "more than half year" magics. So if you are using magical lighting it increases warping. Being so easy to implement it is fairly likely that a lot of magi would use it, especially young ones. Older ones might have commissioned more permanent solutions. Where is the problem here? Not everybody would use it, but a fair number of magi are likely to do it, though.

If you care to retain an Aristotlean viewpoint, and I accept that not everyone does, then there is some information here: [url]https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/card-board-games-archive-links/116/1].

A blinding light is not lumen, but lux. That would not blind anyone beyond the limits of the circle, and would need to penetrate the MR of anyone within the circle.

I don't believe -- but am away from sources just now -- that heat is a form of species. Heat is a quality derived from an item's substance; basically the presence of corpuscles of elemental fire. As a fire burns, fire corpuscles escape into the air, imparting it in turn with the quality of heat. Those fire corpuscles are magical in the situation under discussion, and would remain in the ring. Anyone inside the ring with MR would not be warmed.

I reserve the right to change my opinion on this after consulting my Aristotle and Avicenna!

Edit: so now I've done a bit of digging, and my statement about heat above was not quite right, but correct in its conclusions. A body is affected by both the form (i.e. species) and matter of a sensible object, but the sense faculty is affected only by the species. In practical terms, if you touch a hot object you get burned by the matter and you feel the pain from the species. So heat is perceived by the tactile sense as species. The ring would not limit the radiation of species, so the magus would still feel the warmth, however he would not actually get warm, because the matter (fire corpuscles) are limited to the ring. The same would be true if he were inside the circle and the magic had insufficient Penetration for his Magic Resistance.
So when you are hit by a Pilum of Fire and your parma successfully resists its effect, you will still feel the heat of the flames (i.e. the species) even though they can't damage you.

Mark

Ouch! How about that for a distraction. Throw a fire spell at someone even without penetration to disrupt their concentration.

Is it so hard to expect that magi who live in this world would know that they can resist the Pilum of Fire but still feel the heat? Could they not be prepared for this phenomenon during apprenticeship? Just because we the players are sometimes surprised by the ways Mythic Europe works doesn't mean that the characters would be surprised or unprepared.

Well, I know that a scarlet flash from a light bulb in the side of my vision will not harm me. However, I might still be quite annoyed and fail to concentrate in its presence. This would be a good way of why combat magi might build up concentration, though. This is what "preparedness" sounds like IMS :slight_smile:

Because combat needs more die rolling.

We were tallking about lab Warping, which uses completely different rules from character Warping, despite the identical name.

Scott

It is simpler to hand wave that. You are aware of the sensation of (false) heat, but if it does not penetrate, then it is neither damaging nor painfully distracting. You just get a sensation of magnitude and intensity. The as for a campfire, one generated and sustained with magic (and no penetration) will not warm a magus with parma, but a fire made of mundane tinder that is kindled with magic burns naturally and thus is warming.

I suppose Magica Heating would only work in an enclosed space then. The magic heat warms the walls and furnishings, and once so imbued they radiate their own natural heat.

No, combat needs a rewrite. Agreed. You will not find opposition from me here. But magic might accept more die rolling for sure.

Lab and character warping can be related. Should be, in fact. At least imo

And the rule is simple and direct. Use non-ruitual spells to gain a lab bonus increases warping &/or reduces safety. circle spell, even if only cast once, is a pulsating wild source of magical energy in flux. A ritual or enchanted item is "magically grounded", if you need an explanation (as if the very concept of magic doesn't require a healthy amount of suspension of disbelief in the first place).

It it were, we wouldn't be debating the point.

Scott

A ring duration spell may not be cast regularly, but it's hard to say that the effect isn't regularly used, or the use of the effect isn't employed daily in the function of the lab.
The rule, is that there are disadvantages to non-Ritual spells. The rest of the section goes on to discuss those restrictions. There is no need to explicitly mention ring based spells that aren't rituals, period, full stop. Sure, a ring spell may not need to be cast repeatedly. Ring duration spells may (depending on interpretation) have a constant effect, but it isn't a ritual, and so therefore it should have some disadvantage.

Agreed

I have to admit that I only scanned the thread after the first three pages, so someone may have discussed these points with more skill than I will.

But when I read the definition of ring duration, I see the following

If you are using Creo magic to create light, the thing created is the target. So, if light leaves the circle, the light doesn't just cease to exist, it ends the spell

Given that, how are you going to keep the light from leaving the circle and thus ending the spell? Put up walls to keep the light in? But are the walls inside the circle or outside the circle? Does the light fill the whole circle or just the very center? How are you going to get into the lab without opening the door?

There are ways around it, but they seem like they would be more trouble than they are worth if the rules are rigorously applied.

Yes, that point was brought up, but then we got into the old debate about whether light created by a magical source (like a fire) is itself magical.

Scott

If it is not a major advantage or disadvantage either way, they why prohibit the use in the story. We are here to tell stories.
This is not even close to a game breaking concept. I respect the debate, but there is a point where YSMV becomes the valid outcome.