Magical Powers from more than 1 Realm?

Is it possible to have magical powers derived from combinations of more than 1 realm?

Canonically it seems you can have Holy magi (Divine and Magic) and Merinitia Magi (Faerie and Magic). It seems that diabolic magi can have Infernal as well as Magic derived powers and possibly exotic magi with Infernal and Faerie powers (eg Faerie Summoning) via the alluring Cthonic Magic Virtue.

Can you have Divine & Faerie powers?

Or even Divine and Infernal powers?

Opinions sought,


Personally I'd prefer not to. I think it would become unbecomingly muddy and water down some of the beauty of the mythic realms.

I also intuitively see - without having read up on it - magical power deriving undoubtable from the realm of Magic and no where else. Holy or faerie magic is to me still fundamentally magic, just augmented to factor in the power of the other realm in question, thus forging new advantages in place of potential realm conflicts. To align your power, from the magic realm, with more than one other realm seems inapropriate - I think that it requires very great understanding to align two realm and that it is only possible to hermetic magi because their have such insight into one of them (the magic realm), but to try to align two other realms, neither of which the magi has the insight on he has on magic, would seem unattainable.

In theory you could have access to all the realms - I.e. a Merinitia maga who turns diabolist, and later is redeemed, eventually becoming a holy maga. At this point she'd be able to call upon all the realms, but using infernal powers would probably deprive her of her divine powers...

As a general note, having a chracter that is aligned to more than one realm is not only possible, but not too rare an occurrence. As a matter of fact, the ArM rulebook, discussng realm-power interactions, amkes the example of an hermetic mage who also has a faerie power of illusion and an infernal gift of causing sickness. Such characters may occur because of two typical causes: either the character has two different powers (typically Supernatural Abilities or magic) coming from two different realms, or the character has one or more virtues causing his magic to be aligned with one or two additional realms of power. Both cases may arise either because the virtues or powers were thrusted on their character without his choice (i.e. they were an inborn talent, or powerful denizens of the realm chose the grant them for their own purposes) or they were actively sought by the character via Mystery initiation or enrollment in a group.

It is clear that a character having affiliation with two different realms (or three, for a magus) should be adequately justified by background, but it is also clear that either of both of the above mechanisms may justify such a character: e.g. the character may have one affiliation as an inborn talent or heritage, and the other being the result of purposeful mystery initiation. Or the other affiliation having been given as a boon, curse, or temptation, or a tool for redemption.

To sum it up: it is not something I would expect to see too frequently, but with the right background, I would not have problems in allowing uch a character.

E.g. Divine + Faerie Magics: a maga that was raised by a Merinita parens, then develops an interest in reattuning herself and her magic with the divine. Otherwise, a holy magus that is granted affinity of his magic with the faerie realm, too, as a boon by a powerful faerie. In current edition, the divine is not assumed to be ineherently antagonistic to magic and faerie. It all rests on how such a character sees his rapport with the divine: it may be that he sees reconciling faerie and magical powers and beings with the divine as his mission.

Divine + Infernal magics: in this case, the realms are indeed antagonistic, so in order to justify such a character, it would be necessary for either of these affinities to have been gained by the character without her will or cognizance, or her having undergone some kind of convernsion in the past: e.g. the magus raised by a diabolist parens that sought holy magic initatin to redeem and cleanse his magic. Or a holy maga being "gifted" infernal powers by demons as a tool for temptation and corruption.

As a matter of fact, I'm currently planning such a character: a merinita theurgist pagan magus that has both Faerie Magic and Chtonic Magic. In his case, the former would come by his initation in merinita mysteries, with the latter would represent his affinity with the most dark and primal aspects of magic , man, and nature, rather than the infernal and demons in a strict sense. The various affiliations of the character would IC be seen as being in tune with different parts of the pagan mysticism: the "bright", more benevolent or distant forces and deities (theurgy and faerie magic) and the "dark", more malevolent ones (chtonic magic). Of course, this idea might be modified, and the chtonic bit dropped, if it appeared (I have yet to receive RoP:I) that chtonic magic represents attunement with the infernal and demons in a strict judeo-christian sense, since the concept of the character is that of a pagan mystic that i equally and deeply in tune with the magic and faerie sides of pagan spirituality. the chtonic bit is a sidenote to remark that pagan mysticism would also include dealings and affinities with forces (the "chtonic" deities of earth, death, darkness in a proper sense) that divine religions would see as "demonic".

Okay - I might have been a bit off. I thought the question was whether one could combine two other realms combined in one magic power/spell. For example creating spells that use both faerie and divine in the same spell. On this, my former opinion still stands.

But I agree that a character might very well have different Virtues/Powers/Spells from different realms. This would as stated require a background story to fit it - but that's what make interesting characters (within reasonability).

It is OK. Misunderstanding the intent of a poster is a rather common occurrence. I just happen to have given some more in-depth (I hope) thought to the issue because I planned my next character concept with this feature (when, oh when will my TMRE and RoP:I copies arrive :confused: :frowning: :cry:)

Some other possible character ideas: the obsessed Bonisagus researcher that is focused on making Hermetic Magic immune to both faerie and infernal influences and sought initiation in both virtues as a research tool. The holy magic demon hunter that picked up an affinity with infernal magic, too, as a result of twilight in "enemy" territory, or got it (maybe starting his slippery slide to corruption) as a way to fight "fire with fire". The power-hungry magus that is bent on making his magic effective in pretty much all kinds of auras (sadly for him, getting and using Holy Magic for selfish reasons is not possible, or will earn the character a nice fat divine curse) and begged power boons from both faerie gods and demon princes (getting conflicting obligations from both patrons would be a very appropriate plot hook: with Hermetic mages, having the IC equivalent of a power-player mindset, magical power-lust, is definitely a possibility !).

Ohh - don't I know that!

I've been stalking the postman as a rabid Mastiff fore some time now only to find that my order was only shipped a few days back - more than a week after I ordered it - frm Warehouse 23.

[quote="Furion Transsanus"]
Okay - I might have been a bit off. I thought the question was whether one could combine two other realms combined in one magic power/spell. For example creating spells that use both faerie and divine in the same spell. On this, my former opinion still stands.


Sorry, you were a bit off - that was not my question!

I agree that Faerie/Divine spells or whatever is unworkable.

Note there is an idea for a Breakthrough in HoH:TL about attuning Hermetic spells to one of the other 3 Realms though. I cna't really see an application for it, but then I've not considered it much.


This is what I thought and I agree with you commentary Wanderer.

The Line Editor made a comment on Faerie Saints and such a while back on the Berklist, which could fit in with this. I'm wondering how to fit in Timothy's ArM4 ideas for Taoists (Magic Realm aligned) and Buddhists (Faerie Realm aligned) and I'm thinking some sort of combination of this sort may provide adequate expression.

Both would lack True Faith, as ArM5 requires a monotheistic belief set (or at least dualistic as in Manichean and Zoroastrian), but RoP:tD seems to imply that Divine powers do not necessarily require True Faith to learn (although it is much easier). I could see constructing Mystery paths of both Magic (or Faerie) and Divine Virtues for Taoists and Buddhists respectively would be simple enough and possible even fit into an extended paradigm.

Siberian shamans / Tengrists would be an obvious Divine / Faerie combination that I'd consider developing further.

What use is all this to Mythic Europe?

The Mongols - nomad shaman, Taoists sorcerors and particularly later Buddhist priests were all part of their culture, even if the Ilkhanate lands became quickly Islamicised.


I find this combination harder to envisage - I'll have to reread RoP:tD for the limitations on Holy Methods and Powers. IIRC, they can be used with soem discretion as they are tools (RoP:tD page 48) but at the risk them becoming impotent if abused.

Perhaps this fits with a Divine/Infernal mix, but I'd have to check out RoP:tI first I suppose.

Any clarification on this Erik, given you were involved in both books?

Yes, I've been following your character idea on the other threads with much interest - very interesting. I've always been intrigued by Thessalians and the concept of a Hermetic Witch and Cthonic Magic and Summoning seem a key to this.

I think you could do a decent pre-Order Guorna tradition Necromancer with a combination of Summoning (Magic), Commanding (Infernal) and some other Virtues easily enough but I'm waiting to see RoP:tI still.


Tahnks. I hope you find it useful.

I don't see a mystical tradition couldn't justify a combined alignment for Divine, and either or both or Magic and Faerie as long a it acknowledges a singular universal creator as the Supreme Principle and it advocates "moral" (selfless, or at least responsible) use of magic. As I read it, RoP:D indicates that the Divine sees henotheism, not strict monotheism, as the threshold to bless a mystical practice with alignment to it: one may acknowledge several or even many divine figures to whom deep reverence and veneration may be due, but true worship should be due to the single universal creator. In that light, I believe that Siberian Shaman and Hinduist mages might be excellent Divine/Magic/Faerie combinations.

I would not see it so strict. The Divine does not limit itself to embracing the strict monotheism of Abrahamic religions. I would have no doubt that Hinduism, or some traditions of classical paganism, which recognize a single universal and supreme creator above and beyond all subordinate gods or limited archetypal manifestations of the Deity, to be Divine.

I find this combination harder to envisage - I'll have to reread RoP:tD for the limitations on Holy Methods and Powers. IIRC, they can be used with soem discretion as they are tools (RoP:tD page 48) but at the risk them becoming impotent if abused.
As I said, the two principles are in eternal and complete opposition so it is impossible to create a standing mystical tradition that would embrace both, at least in the ArM cosmology. On the other hand, it is far from impossible to conceive single cases of individual characters, aligned to one side, whom the other side might bestow with some boon or trick of its own as in incentive (boon, temptation) to change sides. It would be a quite instable arragement, and sooner than later, the character should be expected to solve the issue, either by falling, redeeming, or cleansing itself

Glad to hear you deem it interesting. I'll let you guys take a look as soon as I can reasonably finalize it.

I had another partially-related topic on the multi-realm alignemnt issue that I would like to share with the forum, namely what happens when an Hermetic mage with multi-realm alignment becomes immortal, but full dscussion of this point be will ahve to wait as Serf's Obligations call :frowning:

Are you asking if it's possible for a character to have two powers, one Divine and the other Infernal? I think so. I imagine an inquisitor sort of character could have both Sense Holiness and Unholiness and something like Corruption, for example. Or do you mean to ask if a magus can have both Holy Magic and Chthonic Magic? Maybe, but they wouldn't work at the same time. If he used his Chthonic Magic, he'd be committing a sin, because he would be using an infernal power, and Holy Magic can't be used with any kind of sin. But if he did it and then repented and atoned for it, he could probably go back to using his Holy Magic again. It's a very weird situation, though, and I imagine it would be too complicated to deal with. It's probably easier to say that part of the process of learning Holy Magic is giving up Chthonic Magic for good, losing the Virtue forever.

And for something even more twisted, what if the pagan gods of the Faerie pantheon you are worshiping are themselves worshiping a Divine creator, but they just won't tell you? :stuck_out_tongue:

If they don't tell you, and let you worship them instead, they are actively encouraging idolatry, and the Divine won't embrace them. To get out clean, Magical/Faerie subordinate gods have to tell their mistaken worshippers that they aren't the true creators and lords of the world, but the main caretakers, representatives, and agents of the True Boss, and remind mortals each and every time if need be (angels and saints are notorious for doing this). Of course, this does not forbid subordinate gods from reaping their due amount of veneration and respect, which may be very, very large, and they can actually occupy the central position in the day-to-day practices of the religion. E.g. in Middle Ages, their strong sense of social hierarchy often made it feel improper to bother God directly with prayers for assistance except in extreme cases: most such pleas went to the Virgin Mary and the Saints (one does not bother the King for every little need or complaint; you go through the proper channels and your local lord).

RoP:D rules reflect this: most "miracles" should actually be the effect of angelic or Saints' powers, or methods/powers use by divinely-empowered characters. True miracles should be rare.