First, how deep is a Rego Mentem sleep? Enough that it requires serious effort to wake the individual? (We're talking as deep a sleep as it can manage.)
Second, what happens if you try to put a sleepless being to sleep?
What if that person is a normal human Sorcerer with a demon bound to him?
(Situation: In a lacuna under Jerusalem the maga used Life Boost to nearly kill herself and succeeded in not only going past the infernally tainted Aegis but to penetrate his MR with a Rego Mentem spell meant to put someone to sleep.)
I would argue that it's natural for this person to know how to sleep (regardless of whether or not he CAN sleep,) so therefore it should be accessible with Rego Mentem, as it would force his brain to mimic sleep.
They remain asleep until the spell Duration ends (or a more powerful supernatural effect wakes them). Once the Duration ends, it is just a natural sleep and so requires the normal amount of effort to wake the person --- i.e. loud noises, being moved etc.
I would say that the spell affects them normally, until the spell Duration expires. Once the spell has expired they should wake instantly.
That's an interesting way to look at it.
I'm of the opinion that they should be in a state of sleep because they're not receiving an impetus to wake up, but I'd like to hear a response to that idea.
And even if so, it's a fairly deep sleep, should it require some effort to rouse consciousness, say, enough time for an ally to run up and fillet him? Even if it's imitation sleep, their mind has basically been shut off, and whether it's drowsiness or severe disorientation (not to mention any damage that might be incurred from falling unto whatever surface it is) would be irrelevant.
Sleep effect are very "efficient" at low level...
I agree with Mr. R.Love for the first question.
I like the restriction that say that a momentary duration spell of ReMe to put someone to sleep, induce normal sleep. IMHO, I would add that casting it in a standing person would have a similar effect of having him fainting. He would probably wake up a few second later. But that's not what a spell like "The Call to Slumber" pretend to be. IMHO, that spell last should be in diameter duration, if not only for power balance.
For the second question, I think the spell should not work at all. Rego cannot force someone into an unnatural mental status .The mental state is unnatural because the target don't sleep normally.
Guide lines for Rego give it the possibility to change something/someone within what is natural for him. It control a brain/spirit into doing things he could do normally.
I think a sleepless ought to be immune to those spell, and that it can mimic sleep, but not go into a normal sleep (as we know it).
Your Mileage May Vary ! (a lot) =)
The key here is that it isn't a spirit that has never known sleep, it's a human who doubtlessly clearly knows what sleep is, even if he doesn't/can't.
Ah, we posted at the exact same time...
I think in such a case the Story Guide or troupe should decide on a logical answer, and try to stick with it along the campaign.
I don't know a rule precisely answering your question, maybe some exist. But since it's your demon using a power you designed, (using more or less the current ArM5 rules on demons,) you should decide what fits best your campaign.
It's possible to defend with equal force and logic an opinion For or Against a ReMe of Momentary duration putting your possessed guy into sleep.
If you want it to work, I see no problem with the rules with that ! if that is your question
There is no rules for how deep magical sleep is. I would guess it depend on the duration of the spell.
I have a good question for you.
Who amongst us knows how to sleep, really? I mean, we do it, and experience it, but what do we know about it ? We are uncousicious while sleeping, maybe dreaming. But we don't remember clearly dreams. We do know how to go to sleep. Only modern science knows what sleep is physically, and I'm not sure we know a lot now in 2008.
Maybe we'll never know what sleep is from our mind point of view.
I think someone who have known sleep but doesn't need to sleep anymore, and can't sleep at all, will soon realise how strange sleep is indeed. We, normal people, doesn't see that strangeness only because sleeping is casual. Both can't explain it, nor knows what sleep is.
I'd say that animals which are sleepless remain sleepless and spells to make them sleep are ineffectual.
for example a ghost is matterless and is immune to many combat spells.
Art & Academe probably has something to say about which part of the mind sleep spells would operate on. I'm going to look into it.
Ok, for me the easiest way to put someone to sleep is to act on their estimation and "tell" it "you're tired, go to sleep now", which will lead to natural sleep. If the spell isn't maintained, it'll only sleep for an amount of time depending on how tired it is, from a nap to a full night's worth of sleep. As acting on the estimation actually put the victim to sleep, it'll wake up naturally.
Another way would be to act on cognition to enforce a sleep that is closer to inconsciousness (although you can also induce dreams in a sleeping person that way). If the spell isn't maintained, the victim probably wakes up instantly.
Comments and corrections (e.g. if I have misinterpreted things) are most welcome.
Animals are immune to Mentem magic anyway --- you would be wanting to use Animal Form spells.
On the other hand, I don't see why you can't have an equivalent Animal spell that makes even sleepless animals sleep. If the particular animal does not naturally sleep, then maybe that spell couldn't be a Rego spell --- but you should still be able to cast a Muto spell (for example) to change the animal so that it does sleep.
I also think that you should be able to use a Rego Animal spell to make even a "sleepless" animal sleep. The point is that sleeping is something that animals do naturally --- so Rego applies. The fact that the particular animal and circumstances mean it would not normally be asleep is irrelevant. Spells are supernatural effects.
Immaterial ghosts are not immune to effects that make them solid though.
It can be argued that, in a sense, making a sleepless being sleep is like saying that you can damage a fire elemental with fire magic.....
Sleep isn't a mental function, it's a physical one. The natural faculty is condensed by the brain's coldness into a substance which blocks the nerves. This ends movement and the stimulation of the senses. While the body sleeps, this substance is digested by the brain, and once it is gone, the person wakes up. You feel tired after a meal because you have a surfeit of the natural faculty immediately after eating. This is also why you feel hungry upon waking.
My feeling is that magical sleep, since it is a Mentem effect, has nothing to do with this process. If magical sleep suspends all mental function (except, perhaps, cognition - do bespelled sleepers dream?) instead, then a duration is needed to keep it in force. Spells with a momentary duration will only cause sleep long enough to digest whatever coagulated natural faculty is currently in the nerves. If the target has only just woken, the magical sleep might last only minutes.
I agree with the Muto effect making an unnatural change to make sleep a natural response then using rego (or a rego requisite) to enforce that sleep. without that sleepless animals (I'm not sure which animals would fall into this list) would simply not be effected by rego which enacts a 'natural' change of state.
My closest anaology would be trying to set fire to a fire elemental. The spell is supernatural, but the effect is pointless.
But a fireball does nothing while they're immaterial. Again If you make them solid first then there is an issue.
Can you cite chapter and verse for that? Not that I disagree with you, really, but the rules do seem to be very vague on what the ramifications of being immaterial actually are at times. And, of course, there's the question of the differences between fire and magical fire.
Then, a pilum of fire would smack a spirit in the forehead without much problem?
No problem to the spirit, certainly. Fire is just like any other matter, and cannot hurt it.
It might be a big problem to the caster if the spirit is unaware it can't be hurt like this (such as those pesky ghosts of Calebais) and decides to retaliate!
Errr.... isn't the pilum's fire MAGICAL fire? It is not a source of damage of the physical world like a bonfire's fire would be... so it should be able to affect the spirit, right?
It's magical in that it gets resisted by magic resistance but I'm not aware of any reason why it should be able to burn something that is immatrial. It is material things that burn regardless of the magicalness of the heat.
Which demonstrates that I was looking at the wrong section.
Thank you, Magister, for this Philosophiae lesson.