Magically Created Orchard

Hi folks!

In order to improve the aesthetic and the living conditions of our covenant, my Maga (being the only Herbam specialist) is thinking of inventing a ritual that would create an orchard made of different fruit trees (lemon tree, orange tree, peach tree, ...). The covenant is located in the south of France.

Looking at the Creo Herbam guidelines, I noticed that

Would it be allowed to create more than a single type of plant by adding magnitudes, e.g. +1 magnitude for each additional plant ?

Indeed yes, I came up with the following spell:

But... it seems a bit of a small orchard to me, with only 50 individuals each of 1 pace in size. Would a size modifier not be needed here ?


Those are pretty short trees.

Creo , page 77 (emphasis is mine)

Unless you House Rule it , then one CrHe Momentary , Ritual creates one particular type of plant.
You could allow creation of similar plants , if they are natural variations of one another ,
with a Rego requisite.
InHe can determine if fruit trees are natural variations or not.

Or create a number of seedlings using the Base 01 guideline and grow them using the level 15 to 40 guidelines.

I agree that you could create only one type of plant with the Creo spell.
On the other hand you could easily "filter" the ritual through the following:

MuVi Gen The multicoloured nature of Creation, R:Touch, D:Mom, T:Ind

Changes a Group Creo spell of equal or lower level in such a way that the individuals created are all different. For example, you can use the spell to create a varied orchard from a CrHe spell that creates a vegetable garden containing a single type plant, to produce a veritable "Noah's Ark" from a CrAn spell that produces a herd of cattle. This spell can not change the Technique or Form of the original spell, nor boost it by more than a single magnitude, so you would not get Griffins from the Animal spell above, for example. Note that you cannot specifically choose the outcome ("I'd like three sheep, two cows and half a dozen salmons, please") although it's not random; instead, it reflects the platonic ideal of how a larger collection of items similar to, but different from, the ones produced by the original spell, should be.

Base effect ("Significantly change a spell") +1 Touch

On second thoughts, I'm not 100% sure the spell above would work ... hmmm...

In this case you are attempting to alter Part of a Momentary Creo Ritual , several times.
If this could work , Rego & Intellego requisites are probably needed.

That's perfectly ok for a Creo Ritual; the Ritual has Momentary duration, and you only need to change theRitual* for its duration. In other words, if I have a Mom. Ritual that creates strawberries (that persist after the end of the ritual), I only need a Mom. duration Shroud Magic to change my sigil from a smell of fish to a smell of good old sherry. The smell of fish will not return.

No, my issue was more "philosophical". In a nutshell, though I can change the product of a Creo spell, I'm not sure I can change the spell itself in such a way that it's still a Creo spell but no longer conforms to the guideline "one item type and that's it". It's in some sense a limit of (creo) magic that I cannot lift with metamagic.

I knew someone would post while i was editing.

Can a magus actually cast two Ritual spells , even if he makes a Concentration check?
If another Magus casts it , it needs to be Range: Voice at least.
Plus i dont think you can fast cast even a momentary ritual spell to get the timing right.
(MuVi Guidelines , page 159)
Also , Penetration of the MuVI spell must be higher than the spell you are affecting.

Good question. The MuVi doesn't have to be a ritual though, at least in all cases. The guideline is "Significantly Change a Spell of less than Level +1 Magnitude of the Vim Spell". So a powerful magus could case ezzelino's Multicolored Nature of Creation as a Level 50 formulaic and affect rituals of less than the same level (taking into account the Touch range).

A really scary archmagus could even try sponting something like this.

Ok, I'll risk suggesting:

It would be easier to create a whole bunch of seeds of different trees (+1 complexity) and then making them grow to maturity overnight. You plant them on the ground manually, like it has always been done :slight_smile: Or use mundane samples of trees. Herbam specialists probably see trees as alive beings with personality, so simply creating them instantly probably does not appeal to them that much.


I propose to plant normal mundane seeds (if you dispose of a living sapling of the tree you can get also the seeds somewhere) and then to cast this spell several times:

A Fine and Wondrous (Very) Small Orchard (CrHe45)
R: Voice, D: Sun, T: Group

This spell brings ten plants to maturity in a single day or night.

(Base 15, +2 Voice, +2 Sun, +2 Group)

This spell has a much lower magnitude of the two presented by you and is not a ritual, so you can save a lot of vis.

It's certainly the efficient way to do things.

I was struck while reading the description that CrHr brings plants to maturity while you can also use ReHr to make plants bear fruit at will, albeit with the (imo inconsistent) stipulation that these fruits are sterile. I wonder whether there's any fundamental difference between using Creo and Rego in this situation.

Actually, I have re-read the passage Ravencroft quotes, and I changed my mind.

Quoting this sentence alone is somewhat misleading about its meaning. The sentence comes from a passage explaining why creating and healing natural things is easier than creating artificial ones - which require more skill because they are typically composites of several natural forms that must be put together in a particular way. So, I do not see this passage as preventing you from creating an orchard using a Group target.

There may well be another obstacle, in the Creo Herbam guidelines themselves:

The emphasis is mine, and it underscore that 1) this is not an absolute constraint and 2) this really applies to plant products such as clothing or furniture (which the previous paragraph deals with). Considering that a "well-balanced" orchard is in some sense a Platonic ideal, and that you would already be using a Ritual (which tends to add a little "oomph" and help with game balance), I'm now convinced that you can create a diverse orchard with a single T:Group ritual, without adding any extra magnitudes for complexity. There's only one caveat: you cannot really specify what's in it (3 pear trees, 5 peach trees, and uhm no pear trees, I really do not like pears). Instead, the orchard conforms to the platonic ideal of the "perfect orchard" (think of the Garden of Eden), which is not really a bad deal in my opinion :slight_smile:

I agree this is probably the most efficient way to do it. Well, almost.

Cast the same spell at Touch Range, with Circle target and Ring Duration, and you now have:
A Fine and Wondrous Circular Orchard (CrHe 30)
R: Touch, D: Ring, T: Circle

Any seedling planted within the Target Circle will grow to maturity in a single day or night.

(Base 15, +1 Touch, +2 Ring, +0 Circle)

Is there really such a thing as an ideal perfect orchard? I would think it would depend on climate, at the very least, and probably also on whichever fruit Plato had a hankering for.

I don't see any barrier to creating as many types of plants as you want, but at a cost of extra complexity. This doesn't need to be a linear relationship though. With two levels I'd let you create any mix of normal trees that you'd like.


Maybe (well, not the Plato bit!). I really think the "ideal orchard" exists though, even though it may not thrive in a less-than-ideal weather. The very fact that we have a word for it suggests this. But I guess it's highly subjective.

Mythic Australian Orchards are far different to those found in the foul climes beyond the barrier of fire at the equator. :stuck_out_tongue:

Yeah something like that was my thinking as well.
Maybe an extra magnitude again to also allow flowers... Something like that.