Magus' Council

This thread represents discussions that take place during a magus' council.

Only magi characters may post in this thread.

"I have not worked much with Aquarian, but to my knowledge he doesn't have any background with any human religion, which I suppose is a form of equality."
OOC: I'm assuming this conversation takes place I 1220, prior to finding out about the Atlantean religious specific threat...

Atlanteans consider those who have left to be polluted or corrupted and will not accept their return, in addition to which the regio boundary excludes them. However I believe Aquarian is the only one aware of this, and he is not in the meeting. Also I am unsure how much that would affect their reaction compared to dealing with humans who are presumably at least part of the source of said corruption.

A suitable Magic Lore check might give more information for anyone who wants to roll. Knowledge of the Atlantis in the Med would be covered by Magic Lore. Aquarian gets this information as a freebie, since he's originally from Atlantis.

I'll roll for Constantine familiar and himself, scores 2 and 1 respectively.

Magic lore rolls for Atlantis background : 1D10 = [8] = 8
1D10 = [7] = 7

Totals 10 and 8

It solves a meta problem of the mundane ruler being an npc. Better that it's a PC.

"I am reminded by Eagnaidh that he must represent the interests of our magical kin, which he certainly should be capable of doing; a mundane fails that test . Does he have any experience leading or governing?"

"I assume we reserve the right to replace him should it come to that too. "

I agree that it's better to have a PC ruler than an NPC ruler.

Also, FWIW, Aquarian has Leadership 5 (combat), so he has experience as a leader. Presumably the magi would be aware of at least some of Aquarian's leadership experience from stories he's told.

"Aquarian has told me stories of when he was a leader of troops," Magnus replies. "He certainly has leadership experience."

"And the problem of his agelessness is one we won't have to face for decades. And even then, a little Imaginem magic can do wonders." He smiles.

"I would presume that the Regency Council would have the right to remove the named ruler should they so choose."

"But what shall we call our leader? King? Duke? Something else entirely?"

"What about just Regent? "

"Well, the magi will form a Regency Council," Magnus replies. "That makes the name 'Regent' somewhat redundant and potentially confusing."

"Guardian? Defender? Chief?" Meliai offers, "maybe if we don't use a European title they won't wonder so much about his pedigree."

"There's also another issue we should consider," Magnus notes. "We have a lot of work to do both on the island and with the tribunals. I'd like to bring in a couple of new magi from some of the more sympathetic covenants. Two in particular stand out: Lucius of Flambeau and Nimbus of Bjornaer. Lucius is a good politician, while Nimbus is a weather mage. I think they'd fill some of our needs quite well and could serve as good entries in negotiations with members of House Flambeau and House Bjornaer. We might also consider using them as the backbone of a new covenant. If we're to be ready to petition to be a tribunal in eight years, we'll need another three covenants. And eight years will go by fast."

"What do people think?"

OOC: Yes, I know I'm presenting this as a decision when from an OOC perspective it's already done. But this is how the matter would have come up in council.

Gawain smiles and nods. "New blood is always more than welcome. As you say, if we're to have any hope of becoming a new Tribunal, we'll need to setup more covenants. Which actually brings me to my next point. Why should we have someone rule the entire island, even nominally? Why not divide the island and place the responsibility for a given section in the hands of our various covenants? The proposed Council of Magi can handle anything that might affect the island as a whole." Pausing for a moment, he glances around at his fellows before adding. "It just seems the most equitable way to solve this problem to me."

"You mean divide the island into a number of cantons," Magnus says, "and have each canton run by its local covenant? An interesting idea. As an alternative, if we divide the island up into five cantons we could instead have each of the founding magi be the director of one of the cantons. That would allow each of us to pursue our own particular interests within our own canton yet maintain unity throughout the island. We'd want some of our most basic laws to apply to the whole island of course. We'll need that kind of unity. But it would allow a certain leeway for each canton to take on its own character. And we'd certainly need mundane leaders. Aquarian would be an excellent choice for a canton leader."

OOC: this might be a good compromise for the island. It certainly works for the Swiss. It would give each magus an area that they have more control over and can give a particular feel to. Under this proposal the island would have unifying laws, of course, certainly including religious freedom so as not to undermine Meliai's expectations. But this way no one would have to feel that the island was taking on a different feel than they expected at the get go. I also think it would be cool to have an island with different districts that have unique feels to them. Not a perfect solution, of course. But compromise will be necessary given the different visions people have for the island.

Please discuss.

Meliai ponders a moment "Would it be permissible within the code to modify our charter to allow membership in subordinate covenants, and also to found charter covenants which include an oath of fealty to the central covenant? Would the grand tribunal consider those legitimate covenants instead of chapter houses?"

Just offering one suggestion for how things might play out. Feel free to criticize, shoot down, or whatever you like.

"One way to arrange things," Magnus offers. "would be to separate the covenants from the rulership altogether. We could have five cantons with a magister for each one, that being the five of us. Each magister would be in charge of their respective canton with, perhaps, a mundane ruler, much like an autocrat, to handle the mundane aspects of running the canton. The five magisters would make up a Regency Council, or perhaps an Island Council, or whatever we want to call it, who would make all decisions for the island as a whole. We'd probably want a rotating first-among-equals on the council, if only to have someone to run meetings, but that's just a detail. But that would be how the island is ruled."

"Then, quite apart from that, we can have a covenant in each canton, though technically we only need four covenants, so one canton can do without for the present. Still, we'd probably want to plan for a covenant per canton for the future. Besides, that would make us the equal of Translylvania, and I'd rather like to not be lower than them. Magisters could be members of this covenant or the covenant in their canton as they see fit. There should be no requirement for a magister to be a member of their local canton's covenant, though that may end up being regular practice over time. And even if magisters did want to be members of their local covanents. we could still maintain 'guest' labs for them to use here in the powerful Aura of the temple district."

"In the short term, we could start with chapterhouses of this covenant. Then there's be no questions about who belonged to what covenant. We'd all belong to this one. Then, as the Grand Tribinal got near, we'd have to break the chapterhouses off into proper covenants. But that would give us time to arrange for individual libraries, divide up vis sources, and such to make sure that all of the covenants are viable."

"We might put the five covenants here, at the Artemis Grove, at the Aerie, at the ruined town to the north, and at the ruined town to the west, but that's just a proposal. We could certainly start them wherever we like and create cantons accordingly."

"In any case, that's one way of doing things. What do people think of it?"

(Ooc: I think I like it but I'm also confused too. Its too early in the day here. :slight_smile: We still also have the task of setting the borders of the cantons and who gets what. ...btw I'd still love the mountains/aerie thematically )

Constantine looks concerned when Magnus begins speaking, stops himself speaking in interruption; and listens through.
"Initially I thought no but you've hit on something with real merit. "
"So our initial state rules and assigns these cantons to each of us, and then when ready and also when we have enough magi and infrastructure the cantons truly kick in. Makes a lot of sense. "
"I also like separating the rulership of the covenants from each other in that later stage. "
"I'd like to suggest that the covenants do not have open land rights within the canton, instead they control their immediate surroundings but not the wider land around them. That is the responsibility of the magi council person assigned to the canton, who in turn is answerable to and a member of the magi council. I say this so that there will not be land disputes between covenants bordering each other, or when we might have two covenants in the same canton; as the magi council will arbitrate those."
"Does It means that whoever has this site runs this covenant on behalf of the council too, or is this site a special case?"

(( OOC: I'm happy to clear things up if you're confused. Trogdor, any chance you could use that amazing map software of yours and toss up a potential idea of what it might look like? It might help people visualize things a bit better.))

Gawain shakes his head slightly at Constantine's suggestion. "I'm glad you approve, but I can't say that I like the idea of a covenant not being in control of the land surrounding it. Beyond the fact that self determination is at the core of this undertaking, from a practical perspective, covenants are expensive. Why should the rest of us be on the hook for other covenants? Let them find ways to raise their own funds, to support themselves. As for your worry that there might be multiple covenant in one canton, we can solve that problem here and now. Add a provision allowing only a single covenant per canton and the problem goes away!" He pauses, smiling at Constantine before continuing. "As for this site, my thought was that these temples would remain open, a neutral ground for all."

"I could think of two ways to handle this covenant," Magnus replies. "It could be part of a canton, just like any other covenant, and would serve as the covenant for that canton; or it could be extraterritorial in nature, not in any of the cantons, but be a neutral location in which the Regency Council meets, governed by the Council itself. Either option has its advantages and disadvantages."

"I'd suggest that we cap ourselves at five covenants, or six if we make this covenant special, however, and make any other settlements chapter houses. We're packed tight with covenants as it is, far more than any other tribunal. Better that we take the Transylvanian model and make any other magi settlements an offshoot of an existing covenant."

OOC: A few comments

  • We could make the founding covenant the covenant for the First Canton and have four other covenants for the four other cantons, or we could have the founding covenant be extraterritorial in nature (sort of like the DIstrict of Columbia in the USA or the Australian Capital Territory in Australia), that serves as a capitol district, and have five other covenants, one for each canton.
  • We can set the borders of the cantons pretty easily. It seems obvious to have each of the prime covenant spots in a different canton. Once you decide that, the borders should fall out without much trouble.
  • I agree about open land rights.
  • RIght now we're planning more covenants per square mile than any other tribunal by a long shot. I'd recommend that anything beyond one covenant per canton be a chapterhouse of its canton's main covenant. That'll allow for smaller magi settlements if we need them (much like Transylvania does with its oppida) without getting too cumbersome. It'll also make it easier to govern by only having five or six main covenants to worry about.

Here's a proposal for cantons based on the concept of the founding covenant being special:

I tried to be as fair as I could with the distribution, though that wasn't always possible.
The First Canton only has a single level 5 Magical Aura (Founder's Point, I call it, the spot where the ritual to raise Atlantis was cast), but it has the largest settlement, the ruined Atlantean city.
The Second Canton has the Artemis Grove (a level 5 Magical Aura), the level 5 Faerie Aura and Regio, and a level 2 Magical Aura. It also has one of the ruined towns.
The Third Canton has the Aerie (a level 7 Magical Aura), and one of the ruined towns with a level 3 Magical Aura.
The Fourth Canton has a ruined town with a level 4 Magical Aura, another ruined town without an Aura. It also has a level 3 Faerie Aura.
The Fifth Canton has a ruined town with a level 5 Magical Aura and a level 3 Magical Aura with a Regio.

This is only one example of how to split things up, and it can certainly be modified. But it shows that it's eminently possible.

"I'm not saying the covenants wouldn't have control of the land around them, I'm saying that the covenants should have the land directly around them, and the rest of the canton is not theirs. And we should prepare for multiple covenants in a canton as many have multiple auras present. Part of the reason for establishing covenants was to protect those auras from outsiders taking them without our permission."

"Calling them chapter-houses is an option but does not remove the fact that the local members of that Chapter House will want their own degree of autonomy in their immediate lands. I suppose it is a small point to haggle on, in principal I like the plan."

  • The main site will need a bit lot more land to be self sufficient than the initial split allows for. Or am I misunderstanding?
  • Andern - your new character isn't a Magus. I'm assuming you don't need a lab and aura as a priority?

"I tend to agree with Constantine," Magnus replies. "The covenants should only control the land around the covenants themselves. The rest would be controlled by the canton magister, or his or her representative."

"Yes, the local members of the chapter houses might want their own authority. But is it wise to give it to them? We are talking nine covenants within a four hundred square mile area. That's incredibly dense. I think we're far better off limiting ourselves to one official covenant per canton and making any other chapter houses. That way we'll only have to deal with six covenants at once, and that's more than enough. The magi who join those chapter houses will know the situation at the start and will have to accept it. At least that's my proposal."

"Remember, we can always make a chapter house a covenant. But we can never make a covenant back into a chapter house."

Plenty of covenants do just fine with chapter houses. It's done in Normandy. Fengheld has a bunch. There are probably others.
Do we really want to have to deal with nine different covenants? Better just to deal with six. (That's my opinion, at least.)
But you're right, we're quibbling about details here.

Oh, and remember, magi can always keep their labs in the founding covenant.

As for land in the founding covenant, it will likely only have a population in the hundreds. It has about 2 square miles of land and almost the same of orchards and forest. That should keep it fed. And it could have taxes from the cantons for the rest. I just didn't want it to compete with the cantons for size. It seemed that making it more like Washington, DC or ACT was the way to go.

(( OOC: Yup, Gawain has no concerns about Auras or a Lab. ))

Gawain nods. "That's fine. Besides, it can be settled on a canton by canton basis regardless, that is the whole point after all, no? The big question then becomes, how do we decide who gets what canton?"