Major Magical Focus or Minor?

Classy and covered by the focus.

I agree that it is a stronger link to the theme, but that shouldn't discount items that are more subtle in their connection. Crafting a wand from the leg bone of a wolf is cool (perhaps not for the wolf...) so long as that fits your theme.

And it's probably the case that your wolf magus may not want plain old pila of fire jumping from this device because, as you say, that isn't in keeping. But what if he describes it as the manifestation of all the torment of anger and fear of all the wolves hunted and driven from England's shores? He's found a way to link it back to the device. And wouldn't you just bet that visually the fire will take the shape of a wolf's head and the damage is delivered by the slashing an crushing jaws of that same flaming apparition?

Now that sound cool. And linked to his theme too.

Say, one has a Major Magical Focus: Dammage.

He will never be able to enchant, say, a ReMe spell. His focus applies equally to his spells and enchantments, while item focuses would applies to spells as normal, but to any enchantment.

This, I do like.
It makes Minor Item Focus such as wooden wands usefull, but not overly powerfull.

And a Creo Herbam Spell?
A Muto Corpus spell to change you into a bird?
A Rego Vim spell?

In many ways, this makes these minor focus more powerfull than major ones. This is the problem for me.

Well, I've yet to see a compelling argument as to why a focus in "wooden wands" or "wolf" is inappropriate or unbalancing.

I think it's for the game mechanics (in this case the Focus virtue) to describe what the character can achieve and it's for the storyguide and the players to decide how the magus manifests or uses that.

The notion that it is somehow unbalancing is, given the nature of the game, a non-starter. If I had the Book-Learner virtue I would learn much quicker from the same books as my peers. If I had an affinity with an Art or a Puissance with it, I would again be more proficient. But, given that I have only 10 slots for Virtues, and those must be balanced by flaws, and that's the same as my peers, it really does even out. That's what virtues are for; they define the capabilities and tendencies of the character.

It's almost a similar argument with regards to Vis. So long as it's consistently applied within a saga, demarcations of high, medium, or low Vis just aren't that important. All it does is simply allow a greater or lesser number of flashy rituals and/or enchantments or even spell boosting, in any given story.

The focus thing may allow a character to achieve things earlier than he otherwise might but if and only if he finds a way to apply his focus.

My Verditius has a focus in metals (straight from the book). If I wanted to enchant a water wheel, I'd be better at enchanting the iron axle than I would the wheel. Someone with a "dead wood" focus would enchant the wheel itself, I'm sure. There's nothing in either of the magi's natures that says they should in any way be proficient with water wheels, but they are able to apply what they know to enchant one better than the next man.

But the bottom line is, I'm having a hard time working out what the specific problems are with regard to the "wooden wands" focus. Is it character flavour? Is it power levels? Is it something else I'm missing entirely?

Edit: I jut saw the last line of the previous post about minor potentially being more powerful than major. If that's the case, then I think that's a matter to work through within your troupe. The rules as written don't give me much cause for alarm on this point.

Because it means anyone who wants to be an enchanter needs a focus he can use for his enchanting - and that Tremere (who never gets to choose a focus other than certamen (which is rather hard to apply to enchanting) will allways be poor enchanters compared to the other houses...)

We're going to end up going in circles over this one, I'm sure.

I agree that Tremere won't get that boost to their enchanting through the focus the rules give them. But that's probably not what you're playing a Tremere for.

If you did want to play an extraordinary character, like a Tremere with a magical focus other than certamen, I'm sure your troupe would allow that. If your problem is that you can only have one focus, then that's another discussion entirely.

And you don't need a focus for enchanting. If you take Inventive Genius and Puissant Magic Theory that's an instant +5 to lab totals (I think). If you then pursue planetary magic you get an additional bonus. And you can probably find something to make experimenting safer and more reliable. These things start to stack up.

But those are things that apply across all enchantments across all items. A focus tends to define what or how you're going to enchant.

Check the Major Magical Focuses. You find:
Flames, fresh water, Trees, Visual images, Emotions, Disguise... These applies the same way for spells or magic items (unless you want to carry around a Tree that throws Pilums of Fire?), for an area usually smaller than a single art, or spread over several arts in a fairly limited area

While a Minor Magical Focus in Jade, for exemple would apply to:

  • Jade-based spells (Ok, a narrow field, no problem here, this is a Minor Magical Focus)
  • Enchanted Jade items with any effect (Where is it narrow), which is absolutely not slightly narrower than a single Technique and Form combination, as it encompasses every technique and form combination... Suddenly, this is so not minor!

From a purely power-based point of view, I'd pick the second over the first anytime, especially if creating a verditius.
Minor Magical Focus in silver = Instant Elder Verditius Runes as long as I enchant a silver based item. This is such a hindrance...

Ok, saw your edit... A shame I wasted all this time on my post :laughing:
Well, I'll post it nonetheless, as it points out the... "narrow" problem.

I agree that there is a little loose language in the descriptions of the foci virtues.

On principle though, given that we have clear published reference to foci beyond those in the core book, I have to say I like the implications, power levels be damned. If a focus (like wooden wands) opens up too much of an opportunity for sticking any old power in a wooden wand, then I'd make sure it was taken as a major virtue. At least that way the player gets what they want (a master wand maker) and the storyguide and troupe are satisfied that such a big bonus has been well paid for.

The main principle with foci and other virtues (&flaws):
If it gives little advantage it should be minor virtue. Big advangages should be major virtues.
Even the certamen focus of the Tremeres doesn't fit into the one art rule.
You can set this wooden wand focus into minor or major as you wish. No problem here.
Problem will only appear if you choose something strong but thinking it a minor thing. When later its big power turns out you need to rewrite the main points of your character. And the usual debates will come in. That's why clear definitions needed.

Just here to point out that I woulod NEVER allow my own character to get double art bonus for designing a CrIg spell that looks like a wolf head. If the magus wants a damage dealing spoell dealing with wolves, he better uses CrAn.

I agree with Birbin, appart from that.

Xavi

That's not the point. You don't get the bonus because it looks like a wolf, you get the bonus because you're enchanting a wold bone. The effect is immaterial. But because you're a wolf mage your effect will probably look like a wolf, out of keeping to your theme if nothing else.

If he invented the spell, rather than enchanted a piece of wolf, then of course the focus wouldn't apply.

There was a reference to a SPELL that was like that. If the enchanted item is a wolf bone wand, no problem getting the bonus if you want to enchant a spell to make frolicking faeries turn pink.

Xavi

Ejidoth gives an idea I find pretty good here:

I quote the relevant part:

I would still give the bonus to aquam spells enchanted into Jade. After all you are instilling the effect into a stone you know inside out and flipping it while standing on your nose.

Enchanting jade is a lame ability.

If you are uncomfortable with it aplying to the doubling the minor art, you could at least double the bonus of jade for aquam spells to +4 instead of +2. Still gives a reason to use jade as your base component for aquam spells if you are a jade magus.

Cheers,

Xavi

Nope, you haven't understood.

The Enchanting Jade focus works like a normal focus when enchanting aquam-based spells into jade.
Way more powerfull than a normal focus (it covers an entire art), but limited to enchanting jade.

However in the definition of a focus it specifically restricts from a lab activity. You cannot have a focus of "enchanting" or "researching" or "inventing" etc.

Note that, as I mention in the other thread, that could simply be taken to mean you can't have Minor Magical Focus: Charged Items, or Minor Magical Focus: Lesser Invested Devices, or whatever.

I'm not sure it necessarily goes against Minor Magical Focus: Enchanting Wooden Wands, which by the slight alteration to the rules I was suggesting, would give you a bonus to any magic that would allow a wooden wand to project something, repel something, etc. (the shape and material bonuses for wooden wands.)

This is very different from Minor Magical Focus: Charged Items, for example. A focus in charged items would allow any effect, provided it was a charged item. A minor magical focus in wooden wands would allow only the limited set of effects that wands provide shape and material bonuses to, and would only allow it when the effects were enchanted into a wooden wand. This lacks the blandness of thematics that a focus in a type of lab activity would have, and the power of allowing focus: wooden wands, or whatever, to apply to any magic having to do with or enchanted into wooden wands. It strikes a balance that I, at least, like.

Further, I submit that even the Ars Magica line itself has turned its back somewhat on the rule you're attempting to quote. The Cofraternity of Himinis the Mad provides Minor Magical Focus (Wooden Wands) which is useless and nonsensical by your interpretation, and the Cofraternity of Roland has Minor Magical Focus (Swords), which is only slightly better. Both are Verditius subgroups, further suggesting that the foci are meant for enchantment.

Edit: I have to say, it's sort of amusing that my argument uses examples from House Verditius, and I'm arguing against someone that's chosen to have a name 'ex Verditius', here.

Hi,

Agreed for the first six.

The seventh, presumably Re(Cr)Co(An), might be technically allowed, but is at best lvl40 (30 for 7LS + 1 magnitude for each requisite) and possibly as high as lvl50 (30 for 7LS + 2 magnitudes for each requisite; see pg 115). That's if the spell is permitted at all. Though I favor interesting uses of a focus, such as a CrAu(An) version of Clouds o Rain and Thunder that rains wolf blood, the proposed teleport/wolf is nothing more than two wholly unrelated effects tacked together. I find the proposed use similar to a Creo Imaginem specialist with a focus in itching inventing diverse spells with Cr and Im requisites in order to get the benefit: I kill the dragon and my toe itches. I summon an elemental and my toe itches. I sense the nature of vis and my toe itches.... It might be legal, but.

The eighth to me seems reasonable for casting spells on the bone, for destroying the bone, but not at all, as in completely and thoroughly and totally not for enchanting effects into the bone that do not themselves involve the focus. A magical focus either applies or does not apply to specific effects achieved through Hermetic magic, regardless of whether it is a formulaic spell, a ritual, a spont, a lesser enchanted device, etc. The provision for any effect instilled into the bond with a familiar gaining the benefit of any focus that applies to the familiar itself is especially called out. But that's just me. YSMV

Anyway,

Ken

I think the wolf 'seven league stride' works...
It would be Re(Mu)An(Co), with a boost of one magnitude. Essentially the spell is a combination of two spells:

Turn into a wolf.
Teleport a wolf (at personal range) seven leagues.

Since the Rego Animal section says Rego Corpus can be used for guidelines, teleporting a wolf seven leagues is entirely possible. Turning into a wolf for a moment is definitely possible. And the combination works, to me...

I imagine a wolf-wizard turning into a wolf and leaping away, fading as he leapt... then fading in, in mid-air at his destination, changing back to human as he lands.

The requisites probably hurt more than the magical focus helps, in any case. But if a wolf mage wants to invent a spell like that and use his focus, I'd let him.

The example of Creo Imaginem to make your toe itch, added to an unrelated effect, wouldn't work because the focus wouldn't apply to the spell, since the main effect of the spell has nothing to do with the focus. The teleporting wolf thing works because both halves of the spell are wolf-specific.

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There are two requisites, which provide two shifts in magnitude. (Pages 114-115.) The base spell is level 30 or higher, so each suggested shift is two magnitudes. By default rules, the resulting spell is level 50. :slight_smile:

I still don't like it; the spells are not related, and the combination is cheesy even by my low, low standards. But technically it's allowed by the rules as written--which makes it a level 50 ritual.

Anyway,

Ken