Making the Bigger Pig

Beast of Outlandish Size has a Base of 4 and increases Size by +1. I want to turn an eagle into a steed. Size -3 to Size +4. That's seven size increases.

Do I just add a magnitude per size or do I increase the base by the number of size increases?

(Don't have books with me.)

On several related notes...

-If you craft a spell/effect for a particular person/entity to avoid Warping, can you write a generic Lab Text or does it always have to include that entity?
-I assume you can craft a spell/effect for a particular animal/entity same as a human to avoid Warping?

So therefore, I think you need 3 magnitudes to move from -3 to +4. (3+3)<7<(3+3+3)
If the spell is designed for a specific individual, the lab text affects that specific individual. I'm assuming that it affects all target of the same species/type/whatever. And I see no reason why one can't craft a spell for a specific anything...

Jonathan, isn't that quote about changing the Target? Isn't that "size," not "Size"? The OP is about Base, not Target. The three example spells (in ArM5) for MuAn and MuCo provide +1 to Size or up to -2 to Size at the base given. I would not take that to imply that +3 to Size is also available at the same base.

My suggestion would be to extend the example spells, each +1 to Size or up to -2 to Size is an extra magnitude.

Chris

I'm not sure I see the distinction in what you wrote.

So, if I read you right, keep casting the spell until the size of the Beast is +2, and then have invented a spell that increases a beast from +2 to +3 with the same Base, but accounting for the additional magnitude to affect a beast of size +2?
That would seem to be perfectly legal, but I dislike how it doesn't get from A to B in one step...

No, that's not what I said at all. Also, I don't buy that you can benefit from multiple castings of the same spell in that sort of way. I said add magnitudes to the +1 Size spell to boost it up to +7 Size. That would be an extra 6 magnitudes.

Chris

The base doesn't make any indication on how much the size of an animal can be increased. The spell allows one to increase the size by one, but that's wording of the spell.
So why can't I make a spell that increases the target from -3 to +1? That doesn't violate any guidelines. Of course I think a new spell is necessary as Beast of Outlandish Size is designed to increase an animal size by +1' and +1 only.

First, although you say "the spell," there are actually three consistent spells.

Second, you don't have a problem with my own version of The Incantation of Lightning that does +120 damage and is the same level as the original in ArM5, right? This "doesn't violate any guidelines" and has the same multiplier as you're putting on the MuAn example spell to allow +4 Size without extra magnitudes. My preference, where there is a lack of clarity in bases such as in these, is to gauge the intended power level of the base off of the example spells. This helps keep things consistent.

Chris

The way I've handled this in the past is to use the size modification table from RoP:M (p37 and p41) as an indicator of what one magnitude of size-changiness can do.

This is all 100% house rule, but it's worked pretty well so far...

A spell is designed for a specific starting size, which dictates the amount of size change as per that table. If you use the spell on something smaller it works, but not on something bigger. The size change is defined when the spell is invented; casting it on something smaller does not alter the amount of size change the spell provides.

Examples: a spell with an extra magnitude designed to make a pony (base size +1) grow will add +3 size to the pony, but also only add +3 size to a size -10 insect. However, a spell of the same magnitude designed for insects will add +10 size to the insect (from size -10 to size 0), but won't work on anything larger (so no size +11 ponies).

A nice little side effect is almost every spell in the core rulebook actually adheres to this guideline with regard to the size difference listed (I think only 'Transformation of the Ravenous Beast to the Torpid Toad' doesn't), so it's easy to justify.

For the OPs eagle (size -4), you'd need 3 extra magnitudes to get to size +4: base takes you to -1, then to +1, then to +3, then finally to +4. But the spell/effect won't work on things larger than size -4.

Growing a pig would also be slightly different if the spell was optimised for pigs, but Beast of Outlandish Size is designed to work on horses, hence only a +1 boost.

Sure, go ahead... If that's what your troupe wants. I tend to think that all lightning bolts cause +30 damage, because it's not defined in the guideline, but I can see how you might get pedantic and think that's the case.

In any event, Kligs, this is open to some interpretation. I thought initially you might require 3 magnitudes added to the Beast of Outlandish Size Spell, nothing really to support that, and apparently Chris things you need 6 magnitudes added to the spell to get to the size you want. And if you munchkin it, you can probably get away with one... Chris seems to be concerned with the unintended consequences of being able to create really large animals. I'm not so much as those things tend to create interesting stories, such as your giant eagle eating a shepherd's flock, who can't pay his taxes, and now the local nobility blames you, blah...

With an effect as:

Unearthly Magnification of the Beasts
Muto Animal 30. R: Personal, D: Diameter, T: Individual

This spell allows for temporary growth or shrinking of the Magus’ animal form up to Size 11 or down to size -12. The spell may target any creature of up to size +4, but may only change the creatures size by up to 10 size ranks in either direction.

ie. A size a +4, may become up to size +11 or down to -6. A size -3 creature may become size -12 or up to size +7.

(Base 4 for changing creatures size in an unnatural way +/1, +1 to allow for shrinking and growing in the same effect, +1 D:Diameter, +1 mag to affect creatures of up to size +4, +3 to change up to size 11, or down to )

I was hoping this would be the answer since it keeps all the rules in place. Just didn't know whether the entire base should be multiplied or just add magnitudes. Thanks for the discussion, and I'm going to have to pick apart IBT's spell to see if it works. But this way, if I can keep consistency across size tables from RoP:M, I'm a much happier camper.

Also take a look at Hugh of Flambeau in MoH. He has a couple MuCo spells that increase a person's size by +3 by adding one magnitude for size. I don't have RoP:M handy, but it's possible that +3 to a human's size equates to a 10x mass/volume increase. If so, you can combine the two and have your benchmark - each magnitude added for size multiplies the target's mass/volume by 10. The target's Size would then be adjusted a number of steps on the Size table that equates to the 10x mass/volume increase.

fm

Good find. Since the base provides +1 Size, I would then suggest +1 magnitude per additional up to +2 to Size. Note, though, that this isn't 10x mass for one magnitude increase.

I'm more concerned with the unintended consequences of making persons really large rather than animals. Also, it bothers me that MuCo needs an extra +1 magnitude per +1 Soak while an extra +1 magnitude provides the equivalent of roughly +6 Soak by raising Size by +2. Sure, there are some situations where the Soak without the Size is really important. But generally for combat that is not the case.

Chris

Ugh. I was offered a free copy of MoH but I had just met the guy and felt bad about taking free stuff. And ever since... all I hear about is how MoH has answers to all of my fricking questions

That book and Hermetic Projects are simply fantastic books that go into...how do you do stuff area, instead of introducing a mess of rules (some are introduced, or clarified maybe, but not many).

Both MoH and Project are about using rules, rather than expanding rules.
I love 'em both.

I held off on buying it because I couldn't understand how a book of NPCs could really be that useful. I've seen books like that for other game systems that weren't helpful at all. I finally picked it up last week and I'm very glad I did. It's full of ideas about how magi can use magic in a practical sense. I'd say it's especially useful for inexperienced ArM players who don't understand what magi actually do. The pdf is only \$15.

fm

There are multiple sources scattered about the various books that back up the assertion that +1 magnitude = +3 to Size.

The spell in question specifically says "Adds +3 to the caster's normal Size." So if you're Size 0, it makes you size +3, if you're Size -2, you become Size +1, if you're Size +1 you become Size +4.

According to the "Targets and Sizes" box on page 113; "Adding one magnitude (five levels) to the spell multiplies the maximum size of its target by ten. This depends on the mass of the target, so a five level boost to a Corpus spell would allow the magus to affect a giant up to 15 feet tall, not sixty feet tall."

According to the "How Big is a Giant?" box on page 84 RoP:M, 15 feet tall for a humanoid is Size +4 (Size +1 increased by +3).

According to the "Weight of Common Materials" box on page 48 in Grogs: "A +1 increase in Size doubles the weight, +2 points of Size is a fivefold increase in weight, and +3 points of Size is a tenfold increase. The inverse is true when reducing points of Size."

An increase in mass usually includes a corresponding increase in volume. A proportional x10 increase in volume would increase the height of a 6' tall man (near the top end of Size 0) would multiply his height by ~2.15 (the cube root of 10), thus 12.9' which is near the top end of Size +3.

I don't get what you're complaining about in what I said here. +0 Magnitudes gives +1 Size. +1 Magnitude gives +3 Size. Therefore adding a Magnitude adds 3-1=2 additional Size. If adding an additional Magnitude gives an additional +3 to Size, then you should see a 1+3=4 increase to Size. But that's not what the example spells give, is it?

This is not about the Target. Note that these spells to increase Size won't work on a huge person that is already Size +2 because the Target has not been increased. So they can take a Size +1 person to Size +4, but not a Size +2 person to Size +5. They also work for persons smaller than Size +1.

Chris

To clarify:

Adding a magnitude to a spell that changes size of a target allows the caster to increase the size by the increments as indicated in RoP:M (see Major Quality: Gigantic).

I would agree with Callen that we're not discussing Target, the extra magnitude is just a general increase "+x Size" because its in the effect not Target or Range. But I think using the same mechanic for increasing the Target of spells would make sense.

Man, Ars always astounds me when it comes to mechanics. I have never come across a game that has such uniformity/balance amongst all the crazy mechanics that come out in each book. Everytime I see a new one, I instinctually groan because, in almost every other game in existence, supplements add mechanics that don't gel with the original ones. But Ars just keeps surprising me. It's just a pleasant bonus to all of the other cool stuff.