If Faerie Magic R/D/T makes a spell non-Hermetic, then the normal variants of PeVi Unravelling the Fabric of (Form) would not work.
Your opinion seems to put Faerie Magic in the same class as HoH:TL Realm-Aligned spells: there's a slight different twist in the casting of those. OTOH, a Merinitas with FFM can transmogrify spells to Faerie R/T/D which would mean they are Hermetic.
These 2 points make it hard for a Troupe to be that strict.
{ok - it's a mess. the tl;dr is after Leonis' reply}
Ok, Leonis put out the opposite point at the same time. I'll expand on that a little further before replying because I feel a concrete example of what I see is necessary.
First, Potent is another class which requires a re-learning of the spell, same as Realm-Aligned.
Second, Hermetic Architecture (noble's parma?) also adds R/D/T.
Third, Hermetic Integration is not necessary for Minor Breakthrough (a new Range being the example of HoH:TL). I feel this approach could yield interesting insights but nothing comes to mind.
Note that you still use MT to invent spells, even when using Faerie R/D/T. Also note that all this should apply to other non-integrated R/D/T such as Hermetic Architecture.
The fact that FFM can work with non-standard R/D/T brings an interesting idea, some super-FFM (or a lesser spell transforming Virtue) to allow on-the-fly activation of Potent and/or Realm-Alignment. In fact, Major Potent being so weak I'd give it that on/off so you'd never have to relearn spells.
And this feeds back into this issue: considering FFM, are Architecture/Faerie R/D/T as alien as Potent/Realm-Aligned?
That Merinita reads a purely Hermetic Lab Text. Since he has FFM, he can cast it with Duration:Until. Does that mean FFM can break out of Hermetic? Or does it mean that Faerie is Hermetic but not general knowledge? IOW, is it a hidden secret like Verditius, or completely alien like Bjornaer?
FFM cannot do rituals, in rival magic there is a possible breakthrough through the Muspelli, but the chance of that happening is very slim.
Exactly.
Exactly. As I said, storyguide moderation makes sense only for Wizard's Boost, which is a legacy spell. Pretty much every other Muto Vim spell (Mirror of Opposition, another legacy spell, being one exception) modifies the target spell in a specific way that requires no storyguide moderation.
One Shot, your exclamation mark does not add strength to your argument. I am certainly not pleading to my troupe -- they agree with me (and with most of the forum posters) that Muto Vim spells change spells in specific ways that do not require storyguide moderation (barring the usual "veto power" that a troupe has on any aspect of the rules they do not like). Simply accept that your Wizard Boost example was a poor one, that did not support Richard's Love argument, and live with it
I disagree on two grounds. First, you can certainly research a new Duration that does not break Hermetic limits with a Minor Breakthrough. Only those who've studied your discovery can then use it, but this does not make it any less Hermetic.
Second, Unraveling the Fabric of (Form) is very specific about the spells it does not work on: "non-hermetic" magic. This is exactly the same expression used to describe the magics on which Muto Vim spells do not work. So, no matter what you define to be "non-hermetic", Muto Vim works if and only if Unraveling the Fabric of (Form) works. I think allowing Muto Vim magic to work on Faerie (or chthonic, or mercurian, or potent etc.) spells causes less trouble than not allowing Unraveling the Fabric of (Form) to work.
I'm not sure I follow you here. I do agree that only someone with Faerie Magic could cast the Muto Vim spell to turn a D:Year Aegis into a D:Until Aegis.
Ezzelino, the only MuVi spell from ArM5 that allows to change the Duration or Target of a spell requires SG moderation. If you then take a look at MoH p. 113 'Wizard's Expansion (Form)', you find a spell allowing at least to modify the Target of a spell without SG moderation - but if you read closely, you see that this change can only affect the number of targets, not their sizes or types. So we are left to speculate how a MuVi spell changing Duration without SG moderation would have to be limited - but we have seen that authors are taking care here.
Then let's have a look at MuVi spells in general. So MuVi "spells can only be used on Hermetic magic, as they depend on a good understanding of the processes involved".
Finally let's regard the whole picture. We know, that changing parameters like R / D / T of 'Aegis of the Hearth' requires a Major Breakthrough. Now comes the Merinita with a MuVi Faerie Magic Ritual changing Duration: Year to Duration: Until - thereby shaming generations of Bonisagi. What would be involved here?
First, the Faerie Magic Ritual must be possible. This already requires troupe approval - unless one wants to derive it from Wizard's Boost (Vim or Duration), where it requires case-by-case SG moderation.
Second it must be able to affect Hermetic magic at all. This is open to speculation, since the Faerie Magic Ritual is based on a different kind of understanding of magic at least. So this needs troupe approval as well.
Third the Ritual caster must understand - in his Faerie Magic ways - the 'Aegis of the Hearth' well enough to change its Duration on the fly: a feat which Bonisagi so far have never managed even in their labs, and which would take a dedicated one many, many years. This requires a dedicated Brian van Hoose as the Merinita's player, AFAICS.
All in all, a troupe might do it - but many others will certainly not.
Fine for you.
Cheers
Stop. pick up ArM5, re-read the MuVi-guidelines on p. 159. The whole box, not just the "general" elements, but the whole box. Notice the statement
Re-read Wizard's Boost [Form] and Wizard's Reach [Form].
Then re-read my comments about Wizard's Boost above.
See the above.
And surely the Merinita maga using MuVi on the Aegis spell would have good understanding of both the Aegis ritual and D: until (Condition).
you might have a point here, but that is a new argument, unless you're refering back to
If the Aegis is/was fuly hermetic, it will7would be subject to MuVi like all other Hermetic spells.
The best argument i have seen against this, is the argument that the Aegis is not hermetic.
I'm sorry, I don't follow. What Faerie Magic Ritual?
D: Until (Condition) is explicitly stated to be the same level as year and as such require a ritual (ArM5, p. 93), so we know Faerie Magic spells can be ritual spells.
You're appearently refering to a specific Faerie magic Ritual, but I don't see which one, unless the MuVi spell is above level 55, which would only be necessary if we want to manipulate an Aegis of level 55+
Ignore the Wizard's Boost and re-regard your argument.
Can you make the same argument from pure guidelines?
No, he must understand period. Merinita magi (may) still use standard Hermetic Theory.
Again the problem is not with D: Until - if there is a potential problem, it is with the Aegis of the Hearth.
But then the problem (once again) is with hermetic understanding of the Aegis spell, not D: Until.
The potential problem has been acknowledged before and had nothing to do with Wizard's Boost.
As far as i can tell, you're bringing in a new argument here (one which I'm not even sure you fully notice yourself), which might have merit, but potentially deserves a new, seperate thread.
So much in this thread...
Outside of the simplification I stated (dropping to 2-D from 3-D for simplicity of visualization), it is exactly the difference. I just wrote it from a different frame of reference than the sources you sited, but I said the same thing. You cannot agree with those and disagree with mine without contradicting yourself. I can draw it out if it helps. I figured if we wanted to argue within one frame of reference, we might stick to that frame of reference so we could remain consistent.
Do we want to get rude? You want me to ask my graduate astrophysics teacher who was trying to recruit me to do research in solar system mechanics because of my facility with multi-body problems?
Right. So if it was known in ancient times and known to Ptolemy, could it not be that there must be a perturbation to the angular motion of the star sphere? Perhaps Ptolemy would have handled it with an equant or something similar? Perhaps that was Ptolemy's intent but he never worked it all out? So perhaps the magi can complete his work? Then the magi could invent better armillary spheres? The point is that this can be examined with adjustment of the Ptolemaic model, and that means observing the differences does not destroy the fundamentals behind the ArM5 system.
Yes, that would help, as would the same with "before" in place of "after" as both would add clarity over "on." To me, I look at two D: Sun's and see they don't quite cover a full 24-hour day (neglecting white nights and the like) unless you can just about perfectly time the two spells, and that leads me to think the same is probably true of the others. That would require "before" instead of "after." Also, the naming convention of "Year+1" would make more sense to me instead of calling it "Full Year" or something like that; otherwise why is the "+1" in there? But, yes, such a clarification could only be helpful.
Other stuff:
As for D: Until (Condition), I would be very wary. If the caster goes into Twilight, all the Aegis spells he has going will drop. Yikes! I suspect Year+1 would be better, though it's a ritual. Or the ReVi route. Of course, for high-level Aegis of the Hearth spells these would all be rituals, too. But once we're into rituals, we could go with something better from the HoH:MC Merinita section: Aura.
As for arguments about needing to go to your troupe/SG invalidating MuVi, they should be dropped. Not only does Wizard's Reach not say anything about this, everything should be run by the troupe/SG anyway and so this would invalidate everything in the game.
As for specificity, D: Year -> D: Until (Condition) on Vim spells is more specific than any of the specific ones completely under the caster's control that are listed in ArM5.
As for MuVi on Aegis of the Hearth, I would probably go with it's not fully integrated (as seen with the parameter issue) and so MuVi cannot be used on it. PeVi and ReVi canonically can be, but those can be used on non-Hermetic stuff, too. This seems the cleanest of answers to me, and it prevents nigh-permanent Aegis of the Hearth rituals done by some Merinita who have delved into Inner Mysteries.
Chris
I fully agree; or at least the more restricted argument that may be summarized as "Hermetic magic doesn't know how to change Aegis parameters without a breakthrough -- so it can't be done with metamagic either".
Good idea that thread!
One quick note about the "Rego Vim" route, using the "sustain a spell" guideline to extend the duration of a spell.
I used to think that it could work with "arbitrary" extensions, e.g. extending D:Diameter to D:Sun.
A thread on this forum I can no longer find made me change my opinion and now I lean towards a much more restrictive interpretation (as do other troupes, apparently). Basically I assume it can only "keep active" in the absence of involvement of the caster magics with Concentration and similar Durations (Concentration being the only "vanilla hermetic" one) that would otherwise require that involvement. I think that the Technique being Rego is strongly indicative of this.
This here?
'Wizard's Boost (Range)', 'Wizard's Boost (Duration)' and 'Wizard's Boost (Target)' - as described near the end of the spell description - do affect R/D/T respectively, and only R/D/T. What appeared to you was incorrect, so I did skip it.
In the quote I am just starting to sum up arguments that are pretty old IMCs.
I gave another one below.
The one I mentioned above: 11 lines of text higher in this post you have quoted it yourself. I assume it to be a Ritual, because it needs to have Duration: Sun (see errata for ArM5 p.159) and hence be 3 magnitudes higher than the Ritual it shall affect. And tmk a level 40 Aegis is not uncommon.
I skip now some questions of yours that are unquotable, because interspersed with my text you react to, and rather answer them in context. The 'Wizard's Boost' is the only canonical MuVi spell changing another spell's Durations. If a player does not make a variant of it, she has to refer to the MuVi Guidelines, which are sufficiently vague (and patched by different versions of errata) to require troupe approval of each spell built just referring to them.
The need to adjudicate in the troupe, what a Faerie Magic MuVi spell can do about a Hermetic spell has nothing to do with 'Wizard's Boost', however.
This problem is indeed first and foremost with the capability to modify an 'Aegis of the Hearth' on the fly at all. But it is certainly not made any easier if a Merinita wishes to slap a Duration from a Mystery onto it.
Do you now think my last argument you quote to be new, or "acknowledged before"? Anyway I am quite aware of what I write. Let's see what that new thread does, then.
Cheers
Ah, I see. I like it. The spell will fail whenever it's Duration expires. But in the case of D: Concentration there is no expiration as long as the spell is maintained, and that is why it works in this case. It does seem otherwise that ReVi would end up outdoing MuVi at changing Duration, something that is supposed to be part of MuVi.
Chris
Terribly sorry to be rude, but would you stuff Wizard's Boost already?
Your 'Wizard's Boost (Range)' is Wizard's Reach.
Equivalent spells can be constructed directly from the guidelines.
Let's call them...
Wizard's Extension of [Form] (changes duration)
Wizard's Expansion of [Form] (one of many spells that can be designed to manipulate the Target of a spell - in this case it allows a spell to affect a target larger than 1 individual, ie a Wizard's Expansion of Corpus that allows normal corpus spells to affect a Giant-blooded target. Fairly Pedestrian.)
Each of these can be designed purely from first principle, namely the guidelines.
The Guidelines always trumph any single example (spell).
And these spells come out like Wizard's Reach, not Wizard's Boost.
Yes, for rituals. But I cannot believe rituals with Faerie R/D/T would be less "hermetic" than formulaics with Faerie R/D/T. Deciding how FFM works with Faerie Magic would resolve the MuVi question, even if it is applied to a ritual spell.
I believe Faerie Magic is just as hermetic as Mercurian Magic or any other Hermetic Virtue. Adjuration and Weal are what I'd call non-hermetic.
Yes, that's the discussion. Thanks for digging it out!
As I stated in the thread, I think that if one sticks very strictly to the RAW, it appears that you can use the ReVi guideline to, say, keep a D:Sun spell up for D:Moon. But in the wider context of game balance, of what Rego is supposed to do etc. I do like the other view (well summarized by callen above) better.
That's my position too.
Not quite. E. g. 'Wizard's Boost (Range)' from the bottom of the description of 'Wizard's Boost' is one spell boosting ranges for spells of any Form, while 'Wizards Reach (Form)' boosts them only for spells of one specific Form.
I agree. But, given the state of the MuVi Guidelines both with respect to precision and layered errata, in practice every such spell requires a troupe decision.
The only spell that I know to have been generated and made canon of these is MoH p.113 'Wizard's Expansion (Form)', which increases just the number of targets. So for other spells expanding targets there is clearly a need for decision by the troupe again, just how general the spell may become without putting the SG arbitration back in. The same holds for an extension of Duration, of course.
All ArM5 TeFo Guidelines would need to be far more precise for this to be true. In practice you need to consider canon spells as guidelines and examples all the time.
Canon spells from MuVi Guidelines especially show a lot of care and judgement of the authors in their definition.
Cheers
I think MuVi-ing to get into ritual durations, or from one ritual duration to another would itself requre a ritual. I'd propose a Wizard's extension that can double the duration (analogue to doubling the amount of targets) instead.
The whole block really.
Then please, lecture me on how Wizard's Boost works, but be prepared for questions.
And could we have that in a seperate thread, please?
I must have missed them - and still cannot find them.
I must be going blind - could you point them out to me please?
I figured that would have to be what you meant, but you were being unclear and I wanted to be certain we were talking about the same thing - to me, a Faerie Ritual would be one using Faerie Powers and Methods.
And while you may assume that an Aegis of 40+ is normal, that is not a given, especially when also assuming that the Aegis has to penetrate.
Also, Since we're changing things to something of the same effective level, 2 extra magnitudes will do fine (If the same caster casts the Aegis).
Er... actually it doesn't.
(emphasis mine)
So that appearantly is not what the Wizard's boost does - then what does it do?
Huh?!??! That's your argument?
Goodness me.
In this case: This is an RPG - a shared fantasy. Brushing my hair in the morning before I go out requires Troupe approval.
I'm sorry then, but i could have sworn you were the one dragging out Wizard's Boost as an argument.
If this was not so, my apologies.
I could have sworn my copy of ArM5 said Wizard's Boost (Form) and indeed explicitly contains the information that
Wow, it does indeed when I'm looking at it. Who knew.
Is this your position? Then why didn't you bring it forth earlier when people were refering to Wizard's Reach?
Ezze appearantly is capable of using the MuVi guidelines.
So am I, though Wizard's boost specifically bothers me.
Others too seem to be perfectly able to use MuVi and metamagics just from the guidelines (and errata).
No, it shows a very good example of how well-defined the effect of a MuVi spell needs to be.
Like Wizard's Reach.