Merinita are Hermetic magi, no question about that, and the general capabilities of Faerie Magic (at least the Outer Mystery) are probably quite well known to all Hermetic magi. However, a magus trained in Hermetic magic cannot use the Faerie ranges (for example). You need to be initiated into Faerie Magic, therefore it is something different to Hermetic Magic.
It comes down to whether you consider Faerie magic to be a part of Hermetic Magic, or something different (albeit complementary) to Hermetic Magic, and how strictly you think that the "MuVi works only with Hermetic Magic" rule should be followed. Possibly a troupe decision, which is why I said it might not be possible. By comparison, do you consider the Bjornaer Heartbeast to be Hermetic magic? I don't think it is.
Either way, your idea still works (I think) with the Rego Vim "sustain a spell" guideline.
It is not. Faerie magic is an extension of Hermetic magic, if you wish, just like what's achievable with a breakthrough, but it's very evident that it's Hermetic -- Technique + Form, Range/Duration/Target etc.
No. Faerie Magic is Faerie Magic, but it's been integrated into Hermetic Theory, so it can be used with Hermetic Magic once properly Initiated, but Faerie Magic is not Hermetic magic-- that's why it requires an Mystery Initiation. If it were purely Hermetic, you could use it without any further education than what you get from apprenticeship. What you're pointing at above is the result of Faerie Magic's integration into Hermetic Magic.
I contend that a spell designed by a Merinita with a special duration or range made available by their outer house mystery is hermetic, at least so far as to qualify as a "hermetic spell" for purposes of Muto Vim magics, Perdo Vim guidelines, recognizing it from gestures and vocalizations etc. Or would you say such a spell is not affected e.g. by Unravelling the Fabric of (Form)?
In any case, the point seem rather moot to me. Any Merinita using Muto Vim to change the duration of an Hermetic spell to Until(Condition) is affecting an Hermetic spell, so it works even if you assume that spells cast by Merinita magi can't be affected by Muto Vim, by Unravelling the Fabric of Form etc. Unless of course you claim that Aegis of the Hearth is not really Hermetic...
So allowing a result of a Wizard's Boost is up to the case-by-case decision of the storyguide by RAW. This corroborates very strongly Richard Love when he states:
Duration: Until by variant of Wizard's Boost is certainly not something a player can just impose on his troupe by having his character invent it as a Faerie Magic spell.
That's certainly true for Wizard's Boost, because Wizard's Boost gives a "generic power boost" that affects spells in a fashion chosen by the Storyguide/Troupe, even for "vanilla" hermetic spells. But I fail to see how this may be relevant to the case at hand. Take a look at Wizard's Reach. It's very explicit about the fact that it boosts a spell by increasing its Range by one increment. There are many other Muto Vim spells in the supplements that change a spell in a specific way not at the discretion of the Storyguide. So it seems quite reasonable that there can be a spell that changes another to have a specific Duration, as long as the change in magnitude is not too large for the specific guideline.
Note that the two paragraphs above apply regardless of whether we are talking about Faerie Magic Durations or just "vanilla" hermetic ones. The point that Richard Love was making was that Muto Vim spells can't affect non-hermetic magic. I disagree on the basis of two considerations.
First, that in this context non-hermetic magic seems to mean "completely non-hermetic magic" (as in, say supernatural abilities) rather than hermetic magic modified by hermetic virtues or flaws (faerie magic, chtonic magic, verditius magic, mercurian magic etc.). Two things support this interpretation. First, the rationale given for restricting Muto Vim to operate on Hermetic magic is that a magus needs a good understanding of the processes involved, which seems certainly the case for a Hermetic magus with the Virtue Faerie Magic affecting hermetic spells with Faerie Magic Durations. Second, if you assume that any Virtue such as verditius magic suddenly makes a spell non-hermetic, you open all sorts of problems e.g. with "Unravelling the Fabric of Form" or with recognizing a spell from the casting gestures or vocalizations.
The second reason why I disagree with Richard Love is that a spell to change a vanilla hermetic spell into one with a Faerie Magic Duration is affecting a vanilla hermetic spell, so it does not even violate the prescription above!
And there isn't much choice about the Hermetic Range to achieve by Wizard's Reach - so the reservation of storyguide moderation wouldn't make much sense in its text.
See, how you are already pleading to your troupe here! And that troupe will see whether storyguide moderation as for Wizard's Boost is necessary, when e. g. the Duration or Range of a spell shall be changed to a non-Hermetic one with a MuVi spell that is not fully Hermetic, either.
Ah yes, wizard's boost. The red-headed step-child of MuVi.
Unfortuatly, it is not only a rather bad example, it is also irrelevant for the discussion at hand, as far as I can tell.
Wizard's Boost appears to me to affect not a parameter (R/D/T) of the spell, but the guideline used.
It did this before actual guidelines entered the game - it has a very similar explenation in the 2nd edition book - so I'd say small wonder that it reuires a ST decision.
The references to other spells, affecting individual parameters (R/D/T) belong under Wizard's Reach, in the last column of p. 160, which interestingly enough has no reference to an SG decision.
It is an amalgam of Hermetic and Faerie Magic. If your magus put that spell into Durenmar's library, no one but a Merinita could use it. It works on Hermetic Magic because Faerie Magic, as initiated by the Merinita, is compatible with Hermetic Magic. And you can tell it's different because it gets its own Magic Theory. Merinita Faerie Magic has just been made compatible through Bonisagus' research. This compatibility is what allows Unraveling the Fabric of (Form) to work on the spell.
But only a Merinita could cast it, and that's why it's an amalgam of Hermetic-compatible Faerie Magic and Hermetic Magic, rather than purely Hermetic Magic. Being made compatible is not the same as being made Hermetic. Hermetic Magic is something anyone who knows Hermetic Magic Theory can do.
If Faerie Magic R/D/T makes a spell non-Hermetic, then the normal variants of PeVi Unravelling the Fabric of (Form) would not work.
Your opinion seems to put Faerie Magic in the same class as HoH:TL Realm-Aligned spells: there's a slight different twist in the casting of those. OTOH, a Merinitas with FFM can transmogrify spells to Faerie R/T/D which would mean they are Hermetic.
These 2 points make it hard for a Troupe to be that strict.
{ok - it's a mess. the tl;dr is after Leonis' reply}
Ok, Leonis put out the opposite point at the same time. I'll expand on that a little further before replying because I feel a concrete example of what I see is necessary.
First, Potent is another class which requires a re-learning of the spell, same as Realm-Aligned.
Second, Hermetic Architecture (noble's parma?) also adds R/D/T.
Third, Hermetic Integration is not necessary for Minor Breakthrough (a new Range being the example of HoH:TL). I feel this approach could yield interesting insights but nothing comes to mind.
Note that you still use MT to invent spells, even when using Faerie R/D/T. Also note that all this should apply to other non-integrated R/D/T such as Hermetic Architecture.
The fact that FFM can work with non-standard R/D/T brings an interesting idea, some super-FFM (or a lesser spell transforming Virtue) to allow on-the-fly activation of Potent and/or Realm-Alignment. In fact, Major Potent being so weak I'd give it that on/off so you'd never have to relearn spells.
And this feeds back into this issue: considering FFM, are Architecture/Faerie R/D/T as alien as Potent/Realm-Aligned?
That Merinita reads a purely Hermetic Lab Text. Since he has FFM, he can cast it with Duration:Until. Does that mean FFM can break out of Hermetic? Or does it mean that Faerie is Hermetic but not general knowledge? IOW, is it a hidden secret like Verditius, or completely alien like Bjornaer?
Exactly. As I said, storyguide moderation makes sense only for Wizard's Boost, which is a legacy spell. Pretty much every other Muto Vim spell (Mirror of Opposition, another legacy spell, being one exception) modifies the target spell in a specific way that requires no storyguide moderation.
One Shot, your exclamation mark does not add strength to your argument. I am certainly not pleading to my troupe -- they agree with me (and with most of the forum posters) that Muto Vim spells change spells in specific ways that do not require storyguide moderation (barring the usual "veto power" that a troupe has on any aspect of the rules they do not like). Simply accept that your Wizard Boost example was a poor one, that did not support Richard's Love argument, and live with it
I disagree on two grounds. First, you can certainly research a new Duration that does not break Hermetic limits with a Minor Breakthrough. Only those who've studied your discovery can then use it, but this does not make it any less Hermetic.
Second, Unraveling the Fabric of (Form) is very specific about the spells it does not work on: "non-hermetic" magic. This is exactly the same expression used to describe the magics on which Muto Vim spells do not work. So, no matter what you define to be "non-hermetic", Muto Vim works if and only if Unraveling the Fabric of (Form) works. I think allowing Muto Vim magic to work on Faerie (or chthonic, or mercurian, or potent etc.) spells causes less trouble than not allowing Unraveling the Fabric of (Form) to work.
I'm not sure I follow you here. I do agree that only someone with Faerie Magic could cast the Muto Vim spell to turn a D:Year Aegis into a D:Until Aegis.
Ezzelino, the only MuVi spell from ArM5 that allows to change the Duration or Target of a spell requires SG moderation. If you then take a look at MoH p. 113 'Wizard's Expansion (Form)', you find a spell allowing at least to modify the Target of a spell without SG moderation - but if you read closely, you see that this change can only affect the number of targets, not their sizes or types. So we are left to speculate how a MuVi spell changing Duration without SG moderation would have to be limited - but we have seen that authors are taking care here.
Then let's have a look at MuVi spells in general. So MuVi "spells can only be used on Hermetic magic, as they depend on a good understanding of the processes involved".
Finally let's regard the whole picture. We know, that changing parameters like R / D / T of 'Aegis of the Hearth' requires a Major Breakthrough. Now comes the Merinita with a MuVi Faerie Magic Ritual changing Duration: Year to Duration: Until - thereby shaming generations of Bonisagi. What would be involved here?
First, the Faerie Magic Ritual must be possible. This already requires troupe approval - unless one wants to derive it from Wizard's Boost (Vim or Duration), where it requires case-by-case SG moderation.
Second it must be able to affect Hermetic magic at all. This is open to speculation, since the Faerie Magic Ritual is based on a different kind of understanding of magic at least. So this needs troupe approval as well.
Third the Ritual caster must understand - in his Faerie Magic ways - the 'Aegis of the Hearth' well enough to change its Duration on the fly: a feat which Bonisagi so far have never managed even in their labs, and which would take a dedicated one many, many years. This requires a dedicated Brian van Hoose as the Merinita's player, AFAICS.
All in all, a troupe might do it - but many others will certainly not.
Stop. pick up ArM5, re-read the MuVi-guidelines on p. 159. The whole box, not just the "general" elements, but the whole box. Notice the statement
Re-read Wizard's Boost [Form] and Wizard's Reach [Form].
Then re-read my comments about Wizard's Boost above.
See the above.
And surely the Merinita maga using MuVi on the Aegis spell would have good understanding of both the Aegis ritual and D: until (Condition).
you might have a point here, but that is a new argument, unless you're refering back to
If the Aegis is/was fuly hermetic, it will7would be subject to MuVi like all other Hermetic spells.
The best argument i have seen against this, is the argument that the Aegis is not hermetic.
I'm sorry, I don't follow. What Faerie Magic Ritual?
D: Until (Condition) is explicitly stated to be the same level as year and as such require a ritual (ArM5, p. 93), so we know Faerie Magic spells can be ritual spells.
You're appearently refering to a specific Faerie magic Ritual, but I don't see which one, unless the MuVi spell is above level 55, which would only be necessary if we want to manipulate an Aegis of level 55+
Ignore the Wizard's Boost and re-regard your argument.
Can you make the same argument from pure guidelines?
No, he must understand period. Merinita magi (may) still use standard Hermetic Theory.
Again the problem is not with D: Until - if there is a potential problem, it is with the Aegis of the Hearth.
But then the problem (once again) is with hermetic understanding of the Aegis spell, not D: Until.
The potential problem has been acknowledged before and had nothing to do with Wizard's Boost.
As far as i can tell, you're bringing in a new argument here (one which I'm not even sure you fully notice yourself), which might have merit, but potentially deserves a new, seperate thread.
Outside of the simplification I stated (dropping to 2-D from 3-D for simplicity of visualization), it is exactly the difference. I just wrote it from a different frame of reference than the sources you sited, but I said the same thing. You cannot agree with those and disagree with mine without contradicting yourself. I can draw it out if it helps. I figured if we wanted to argue within one frame of reference, we might stick to that frame of reference so we could remain consistent.
Do we want to get rude? You want me to ask my graduate astrophysics teacher who was trying to recruit me to do research in solar system mechanics because of my facility with multi-body problems?
Right. So if it was known in ancient times and known to Ptolemy, could it not be that there must be a perturbation to the angular motion of the star sphere? Perhaps Ptolemy would have handled it with an equant or something similar? Perhaps that was Ptolemy's intent but he never worked it all out? So perhaps the magi can complete his work? Then the magi could invent better armillary spheres? The point is that this can be examined with adjustment of the Ptolemaic model, and that means observing the differences does not destroy the fundamentals behind the ArM5 system.
Yes, that would help, as would the same with "before" in place of "after" as both would add clarity over "on." To me, I look at two D: Sun's and see they don't quite cover a full 24-hour day (neglecting white nights and the like) unless you can just about perfectly time the two spells, and that leads me to think the same is probably true of the others. That would require "before" instead of "after." Also, the naming convention of "Year+1" would make more sense to me instead of calling it "Full Year" or something like that; otherwise why is the "+1" in there? But, yes, such a clarification could only be helpful.
Other stuff:
As for D: Until (Condition), I would be very wary. If the caster goes into Twilight, all the Aegis spells he has going will drop. Yikes! I suspect Year+1 would be better, though it's a ritual. Or the ReVi route. Of course, for high-level Aegis of the Hearth spells these would all be rituals, too. But once we're into rituals, we could go with something better from the HoH:MC Merinita section: Aura.
As for arguments about needing to go to your troupe/SG invalidating MuVi, they should be dropped. Not only does Wizard's Reach not say anything about this, everything should be run by the troupe/SG anyway and so this would invalidate everything in the game.
As for specificity, D: Year -> D: Until (Condition) on Vim spells is more specific than any of the specific ones completely under the caster's control that are listed in ArM5.
As for MuVi on Aegis of the Hearth, I would probably go with it's not fully integrated (as seen with the parameter issue) and so MuVi cannot be used on it. PeVi and ReVi canonically can be, but those can be used on non-Hermetic stuff, too. This seems the cleanest of answers to me, and it prevents nigh-permanent Aegis of the Hearth rituals done by some Merinita who have delved into Inner Mysteries.
I fully agree; or at least the more restricted argument that may be summarized as "Hermetic magic doesn't know how to change Aegis parameters without a breakthrough -- so it can't be done with metamagic either".
One quick note about the "Rego Vim" route, using the "sustain a spell" guideline to extend the duration of a spell.
I used to think that it could work with "arbitrary" extensions, e.g. extending D:Diameter to D:Sun.
A thread on this forum I can no longer find made me change my opinion and now I lean towards a much more restrictive interpretation (as do other troupes, apparently). Basically I assume it can only "keep active" in the absence of involvement of the caster magics with Concentration and similar Durations (Concentration being the only "vanilla hermetic" one) that would otherwise require that involvement. I think that the Technique being Rego is strongly indicative of this.
Exactly. As I said, storyguide moderation makes sense only for Wizard's Boost, which is a legacy spell. Pretty much every other Muto Vim spell (Mirror of Opposition, another legacy spell, being one exception) modifies the target spell in a specific way that requires no storyguide moderation.