Mercurian Aegis contractors - is this remotely plausible?

[Berengar]

@Vespasian

@One Shot

Ezzelino, the only MuVi spell from ArM5 that allows to change the Duration or Target of a spell requires SG moderation.

Stop. pick up ArM5, re-read the MuVi-guidelines on p. 159. The whole box, not just the "general" elements, but the whole box. Notice the statement

@ArM5

Note that a spell invented according to one of the guidelines below will change the spell in a specific way;

Re-read Wizard's Boost [Form] and Wizard's Reach [Form].
Then re-read my comments about Wizard's Boost above.

This here?

@Vespasian

Wizard's Boost appears to me to affect not a parameter (R/D/T) of the spell, but the guideline used.

'Wizard's Boost (Range)', 'Wizard's Boost (Duration)' and 'Wizard's Boost (Target)' - as described near the end of the spell description - do affect R/D/T respectively, and only R/D/T. What appeared to you was incorrect, so I did skip it.

@Vespasian

Finally let's regard the whole picture. We know, that changing parameters like R / D / T of 'Aegis of the Hearth' requires a Major Breakthrough. Now comes the Merinita with a MuVi Faerie Magic Ritual changing Duration: Year to Duration: Until - thereby shaming generations of Bonisagi. What would be involved here?

you might have a point here, ...

In the quote I am just starting to sum up arguments that are pretty old IMCs.

@Vespasian

If the Aegis is/was fuly hermetic, it will7would be subject to MuVi like all other Hermetic spells.
The best argument i have seen against this, is the argument that the Aegis is not hermetic.

I gave another one below.

@Vespasian

First, the Faerie Magic Ritual must be possible. This already requires troupe approval

I'm sorry, I don't follow. What Faerie Magic Ritual?

The one I mentioned above: 11 lines of text higher in this post you have quoted it yourself. I assume it to be a Ritual, because it needs to have Duration: Sun (see errata for ArM5 p.159) and hence be 3 magnitudes higher than the Ritual it shall affect. And tmk a level 40 Aegis is not uncommon.

I skip now some questions of yours that are unquotable, because interspersed with my text you react to, and rather answer them in context. The 'Wizard's Boost' is the only canonical MuVi spell changing another spell's Durations. If a player does not make a variant of it, she has to refer to the MuVi Guidelines, which are sufficiently vague (and patched by different versions of errata) to require troupe approval of each spell built just referring to them.
The need to adjudicate in the troupe, what a Faerie Magic MuVi spell can do about a Hermetic spell has nothing to do with 'Wizard's Boost', however.

@Vespasian

Third the Ritual caster must understand - in his Faerie Magic ways -

No, he must understand period. Merinita magi (may) still use standard Hermetic Theory.
Again the problem is not with D: Until - if there is a potential problem, it is with the Aegis of the Hearth.

the 'Aegis of the Hearth' well enough to change its Duration on the fly: a feat which Bonisagi so far have never managed even in their labs, and which would take a dedicated one many, many years. This requires a dedicated Brian van Hoose as the Merinita's player, AFAICS.

But then the problem (once again) is with hermetic understanding of the Aegis spell, not D: Until.

This problem is indeed first and foremost with the capability to modify an 'Aegis of the Hearth' on the fly at all. But it is certainly not made any easier if a Merinita wishes to slap a Duration from a Mystery onto it.

@Vespasian

The potential problem has been acknowledged before and had nothing to do with Wizard's Boost.

As far as i can tell, you're bringing in a new argument here (one which I'm not even sure you fully notice yourself), which might have merit, but potentially deserves a new, seperate thread.

Do you now think my last argument you quote to be new, or "acknowledged before"? Anyway I am quite aware of what I write. Let's see what that new thread does, then.

Cheers

[callen]

@ezzelino

Basically I assume it can only "keep active" in the absence of involvement of the caster magics with Concentration and similar Durations (Concentration being the only "vanilla hermetic" one) that would otherwise require that involvement. I think that the Technique being Rego is strongly indicative of this.

Ah, I see. I like it. The spell will fail whenever it's Duration expires. But in the case of D: Concentration there is no expiration as long as the spell is maintained, and that is why it works in this case. It does seem otherwise that ReVi would end up outdoing MuVi at changing Duration, something that is supposed to be part of MuVi.

Chris

[Tellus]

@callen

Ah, I see. I like it. The spell will fail whenever it's Duration expires. But in the case of D: Concentration there is no expiration as long as the spell is maintained, and that is why it works in this case. It does seem otherwise that ReVi would end up outdoing MuVi at changing Duration, something that is supposed to be part of MuVi.

Would you be refering to this?

[Tellus]

@One Shot

'Wizard's Boost (Range)', 'Wizard's Boost (Duration)' and 'Wizard's Boost (Target)' - as described near the end of the spell description - do affect R/D/T respectively, and only R/D/T.

Terribly sorry to be rude, but would you stuff Wizard's Boost already?

Your 'Wizard's Boost (Range)' is Wizard's Reach.

Equivalent spells can be constructed directly from the guidelines.
Let's call them...
Wizard's Extension of [Form] (changes duration)
Wizard's Expansion of [Form] (one of many spells that can be designed to manipulate the Target of a spell - in this case it allows a spell to affect a target larger than 1 individual, ie a Wizard's Expansion of Corpus that allows normal corpus spells to affect a Giant-blooded target. Fairly Pedestrian.)

Each of these can be designed purely from first principle, namely the guidelines.
The Guidelines always trumph any single example (spell).
And these spells come out like Wizard's Reach, not Wizard's Boost.

[Tugdual]

@Henricus

FFM cannot do rituals, in rival magic there is a possible breakthrough through the Muspelli, but the chance of that happening is very slim.

Yes, for rituals. But I cannot believe rituals with Faerie R/D/T would be less "hermetic" than formulaics with Faerie R/D/T. Deciding how FFM works with Faerie Magic would resolve the MuVi question, even if it is applied to a ritual spell.

I believe Faerie Magic is just as hermetic as Mercurian Magic or any other Hermetic Virtue. Adjuration and Weal are what I'd call non-hermetic.

[ezzelino]

@Tellus

@callen

Ah, I see. I like it. The spell will fail whenever it's Duration expires. But in the case of D: Concentration there is no expiration as long as the spell is maintained, and that is why it works in this case. It does seem otherwise that ReVi would end up outdoing MuVi at changing Duration, something that is supposed to be part of MuVi.

Would you be refering to this?

Yes, that's the discussion. Thanks for digging it out!

As I stated in the thread, I think that if one sticks very strictly to the RAW, it appears that you can use the ReVi guideline to, say, keep a D:Sun spell up for D:Moon. But in the wider context of game balance, of what Rego is supposed to do etc. I do like the other view (well summarized by callen above) better.

[ezzelino]

@Tugdual

I believe Faerie Magic is just as hermetic as Mercurian Magic or any other Hermetic Virtue. Adjuration and Weal are what I'd call non-hermetic.

That's my position too.

[Berengar]

@Tellus

@One Shot

'Wizard's Boost (Range)', 'Wizard's Boost (Duration)' and 'Wizard's Boost (Target)' - as described near the end of the spell description - do affect R/D/T respectively, and only R/D/T.

...

Your 'Wizard's Boost (Range)' is Wizard's Reach.

Not quite. E. g. 'Wizard's Boost (Range)' from the bottom of the description of 'Wizard's Boost' is one spell boosting ranges for spells of any Form, while 'Wizards Reach (Form)' boosts them only for spells of one specific Form.

@Tellus

Equivalent spells can be constructed directly from the guidelines.

I agree. But, given the state of the MuVi Guidelines both with respect to precision and layered errata, in practice every such spell requires a troupe decision.

@Tellus

Let's call them...
Wizard's Extension of [Form] (changes duration)
Wizard's Expansion of [Form] (one of many spells that can be designed to manipulate the Target of a spell - in this case it allows a spell to affect a target larger than 1 individual, ie a Wizard's Expansion of Corpus that allows normal corpus spells to affect a Giant-blooded target. Fairly Pedestrian.)

The only spell that I know to have been generated and made canon of these is MoH p.113 'Wizard's Expansion (Form)', which increases just the number of targets. So for other spells expanding targets there is clearly a need for decision by the troupe again, just how general the spell may become without putting the SG arbitration back in. The same holds for an extension of Duration, of course.

@Tellus

Each of these can be designed purely from first principle, namely the guidelines.
The Guidelines always trumph any single example (spell).

All ArM5 TeFo Guidelines would need to be far more precise for this to be true. In practice you need to consider canon spells as guidelines and examples all the time.
Canon spells from MuVi Guidelines especially show a lot of care and judgement of the authors in their definition.

Cheers

[Henricus]

I think MuVi-ing to get into ritual durations, or from one ritual duration to another would itself requre a ritual. I'd propose a Wizard's extension that can double the duration (analogue to doubling the amount of targets) instead.

[Vespasian]

@One Shot

This here?

@Vespasian

Wizard's Boost appears to me to affect not a parameter (R/D/T) of the spell, but the guideline used.

'Wizard's Boost (Range)', 'Wizard's Boost (Duration)' and 'Wizard's Boost (Target)' - as described near the end of the spell description - do affect R/D/T respectively, and only R/D/T.

The whole block really.

What appeared to you was incorrect, so I did skip it.

Then please, lecture me on how Wizard's Boost works, but be prepared for questions.
And could we have that in a seperate thread, please?

In the quote I am just starting to sum up arguments that are pretty old IMCs.

I must have missed them - and still cannot find them.
I must be going blind - could you point them out to me please?

I'm sorry, I don't follow. What Faerie Magic Ritual?

The one I mentioned above: 11 lines of text higher in this post you have quoted it yourself. I assume it to be a Ritual, because it needs to have Duration: Sun (see errata for ArM5 p.159) and hence be 3 magnitudes higher than the Ritual it shall affect. And tmk a level 40 Aegis is not uncommon.

I figured that would have to be what you meant, but you were being unclear and I wanted to be certain we were talking about the same thing - to me, a Faerie Ritual would be one using Faerie Powers and Methods.
And while you may assume that an Aegis of 40+ is normal, that is not a given, especially when also assuming that the Aegis has to penetrate.
Also, Since we're changing things to something of the same effective level, 2 extra magnitudes will do fine (If the same caster casts the Aegis).

The 'Wizard's Boost' is the only canonical MuVi spell changing another spell's Durations

Er... actually it doesn't.

@ArM5

There are other versions of this spell, each of which affects one of range, duration and target

(emphasis mine)
So that appearantly is not what the Wizard's boost does - then what does it do?

If a player does not make a variant of it, she has to refer to the MuVi Guidelines, which are sufficiently vague (and patched by different versions of errata) to require troupe approval of each spell built just referring to them.

Huh?!??! That's your argument?
Goodness me.
In this case: This is an RPG - a shared fantasy. Brushing my hair in the morning before I go out requires Troupe approval.

The need to adjudicate in the troupe, what a Faerie Magic MuVi spell can do about a Hermetic spell has nothing to do with 'Wizard's Boost', however.

I'm sorry then, but i could have sworn you were the one dragging out Wizard's Boost as an argument.
If this was not so, my apologies.

This problem is indeed first and foremost with the capability to modify an 'Aegis of the Hearth' on the fly at all. But it is certainly not made any easier if a Merinita wishes to slap a Duration from a Mystery onto it.

@Vespasian

The potential problem has been acknowledged before and had nothing to do with Wizard's Boost.

@One Shot

@Tellus

@One Shot

'Wizard's Boost (Range)', 'Wizard's Boost (Duration)' and 'Wizard's Boost (Target)' - as described near the end of the spell description - do affect R/D/T respectively, and only R/D/T.

...

Your 'Wizard's Boost (Range)' is Wizard's Reach.

Not quite. E. g. 'Wizard's Boost (Range)' from the bottom of the description of 'Wizard's Boost' is one spell boosting ranges for spells of any Form, while 'Wizards Reach (Form)' boosts them only for spells of one specific Form.

I could have sworn my copy of ArM5 said Wizard's Boost (Form) and indeed explicitly contains the information that

@ArM5

There are ten versions of this spell, one for each Hermetic Form.

Wow, it does indeed when I'm looking at it. Who knew.

@One Shot

Canon spells from MuVi Guidelines especially show a lot of care and judgement of the authors in their definition.

Is this your position? Then why didn't you bring it forth earlier when people were refering to Wizard's Reach?

@One Shot

Take a look at ArM5 p.160 (underscore mine):

@Wizard's Boost (Form)

The effect of the other spell increases 5 levels of power, but not past the level of the Wizard's Boost. The effects of the extra 5 levels of power are for the storyguide to determine. ... There are other versions of this spell, each of which affects one of range, duration and target, for any Form.

So allowing a result of a Wizard's Boost is up to the case-by-case decision of the storyguide by RAW.

@ezzelino

That's certainly true for Wizard's Boost, because Wizard's Boost gives a "generic power boost" that affects spells in a fashion chosen by the Storyguide/Troupe, even for "vanilla" hermetic spells. But I fail to see how this may be relevant to the case at hand. Take a look at Wizard's Reach. It's very explicit about the fact that it boosts a spell by increasing its Range by one increment. There are many other Muto Vim spells in the supplements that change a spell in a specific way not at the discretion of the Storyguide. So it seems quite reasonable that there can be a spell that changes another to have a specific Duration, as long as the change in magnitude is not too large for the specific guideline.

Ezze appearantly is capable of using the MuVi guidelines.
So am I, though Wizard's boost specifically bothers me.
Others too seem to be perfectly able to use MuVi and metamagics just from the guidelines (and errata).

The only spell that I know to have been generated and made canon of these is MoH p.113 'Wizard's Expansion (Form)', which increases just the number of targets. So for other spells expanding targets there is clearly a need for decision by the troupe again, just how general the spell may become without putting the SG arbitration back in.

No, it shows a very good example of how well-defined the effect of a MuVi spell needs to be.
Like Wizard's Reach.