In favor of separating it out, as long as there is notation that Mercurian Magi often have the flaw (or one of the similar ones).
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It won't break anything. It would probably help put Mercurian Magic on par with the other Major Hermetic Virtues.
Based on your comment above, are you planning to separate Flaws from other Major Hermetic Virtues (Diedne Magic, Mythic Blood)?
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Separating the flaw out makes me much more likely to make a character with Mercurian Magic, so thumbs up from me.
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It looks as though no-one thinks this is a terrible idea, and some people think it's good. I will thus go ahead and do it. Thanks for the feedback, everyone.
No. There is no persistent sense that those Virtues are probably a bit underpowered, and converting them into sets of multiple Virtues and Flaws is too much of a change for errata.
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I'm fine if they're not touched. But...
That's really off. Maybe not for Diedne Magic. But I'm pretty sure almost everyone thinks Mythic Blood is Underpowered. You pay 3 points and use up your Major Hermetic Virtue spot. What do you get? Minor Magical Focus (worth 1 point), a power (for someone with Hermetic magic this is generally well less than you'll get out of Skilled Parens, so less than 1 point), a little Fatigue reduction (it's only a little useful, not a lot; it'd be odd if this were worth 1 point), and a Personality Flaw (-1 point). You do also get access to Heroic stuff, which helps a little. That's a total value of about 2 points while you pay 3 points and lose your Major Hermetic Virtue spot.
That's why, from what I've seen, there is a persistent sense that it is underpowered. You only take it for major thematic stuff, knowing you're taking a hit for it.
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I have to agree with @callen there. Mythic Blood is
- Minor Magical Focus
- a power that's about what you could do with the Minor Power Virtue from RoP:M
- something that isn't Withstand Casting (TMRE, p. 36) but is close enough for government work
- Personality Flaw
- Potentially access to Heroic stuff.
It's a virtue that I want to like. But almost always find some other virtue which works better.
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I thoroughly agree Mythic Blood is underpowered. It is one of the only major hermetics I tell new players to entirely stay away from, because it looks strong, but is essentially a trap.
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There's a whole other thread about that.
I'm a bit late to the discussion but I'm playing a Mercurian right now and the flaw is quite murky for me a long time player so it must be very hard for new players.
Questions that arise are:
- Does it apply to Certamen. Resolved this one in another Thread and the answer seems to be no
- Does it apply to Fast cast defence. All seems to indicate that it does which means that in a face to face fight, most Mercurians die as they can only rely on their mundane skills or the few spells they know. This by itself makes it a major flaw
- Does it apply to Spontaneous fast casting meaning that Mercurians need to fast cast formulalic spells in order to strike 1st which I think is in good spirit of the Merit
If all 3 of the above were part of the Mercurian magic flaw, I would say it reduces a Magi to a hedge wizard. If the last 2 count, I say it is a very bad merit. If only the last one counts + having to cast all the "regular" spontaneous spell in ceremonial, then it is a viable merit.
Guess you can use this information to better describe your new flaw.
W
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The flaw part of Mercurian Magic applies to Spontaneous Casting, not to anything else. I don't see how this is murky, but anyway:
Certamen isn't spontaneous casting, so it is not affected.
Spontaneous fast casting is Spontaneous Casting, so it applies there. No Spontaneous Fast Casting for Mercurians.
Fast Casting of Formulaic Spells isn't Spontaneous Casting, so the flaw does not apply here.
Fast Cast defences will therefore have to be done with whatever Formulaic spells the mage is able to fast cast. Note that 2-3 well-chosen spells can cover most situations, and that most mages never end up fighting another mage (though that is not something one can count on.)
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Maybe Certamen isn't explicitly under spontaneous casting book section but it surely looks a lot like it. It ain't formulaic, it ain't a magical object. It spontaneously creates a new avatar every time that is different based on the Te Fo combination and the progress of your arts and key stats and every round you have it do something different and switch things spontaneously. That being said, fine it is not explicitly under the spontaneous section of spell casting.
Fast cast defense spell casting, also known by many as counter spelling, albeit not explicitly requiring to be spontaneous spell casting, it is only detailed under that section. One could argue that in order to be able to successfully defend with a casting of half level, you need the custom adjustments that are done on the fly with spontaneous spell casting and that those rules do not apply to rigid formulaic spells not matter how fast they are cast. I'd argue that the formulaic spells need, in order to successfully defend against an effect heading your way, to extract you from the requirements of the incoming effect. Effects such as teleporting our of range, putting a wall that breaks the line of effect or simply neutralize the caster before he is done casting would work but even if these 2-3 examples work for a very wide range of situations, they are not even close to being as effective & all encompassing as fast casting a spontaneous defense and require a minimum of one season each to master. I've never played a campaign where every Magi character didn't have to face a rogue sodalis at some point... suffice to say that at the very minimum, Mercurians, without access to a fast cast defence, are all perceived as easy preys if you are able to get into their faces and Mercurians are probably perceived as cowards hiding behind big Aegis' all the time for all Wizards wars.
Ok... now seems my Magi needs to master some fast casting formulaic spells ASAP... hmmm... he will have to learn some 1st... oh... need to increase lab total in order to learn the effects. Damn.. also need to find resources to buy the damn things! Feels like 10 years to catch-up what everybody else can do on day 1 and still they will survive better. Not complaining.. I chose this life 
Strife is a path to growth as would saw some Criamon's
Bottom line is that I think that just having the inability to do a spontaneous fast cast defense would be a very big minor flaw. Add to it that you have to do ceremonial casting to all the other spontaneous effects is much of a lesser restriction but might be enough to call it a Major Hermetic Flaw. Probably more restrictive/Impact-full than Deficient Technique or Difficult Longevity Potion and similar to Weak Magic Resistance which I have never seen a player character take as it is sooo dooming you really have to get into the "pleaser" mode and hope conflict stays away or that someone else always jumps in to save the day.
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Certamen is a special adjunct to Hermetic Magic, allowing two co-operating Hermetic Magi to test their raw power against each other. It can only be used between two co-operating Hermetic Magi, who have performed the necessary ceremonial setup. The phantasms produced is merely a side effect of the magic ritual. There is no divide by 2 or 5, or any other mechanism associated with spontaneous magic.
Calling Certamen spontaneous magic is about as accurate as calling Parma Magica a ritual spell.
It is possible that two meanings to fast cast defences have been conflated.
Yes, a non-Mercurian mage can try to fast cast a spontaneous spell to interfere with something happening immediately. But the interference will be rather weak and probably not able to teleport them, or manifest a wall, or other high level effect, unless their TeFo combo is something like 30+.
The other option is to master a formulaic spell with the Fast Cast Mastery, and hope it is the right spell for the situation when the time comes. However, unless your mage has the Flawless Magic major virtue, they won't be able to do this either on day 1.
It is easier to invest in Shield Grogs.
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Certamen also consumes fatigue like spontaneous spell casting but yes, I agree, about as accurate as calling Parma Magica a ritual spell (Which I agree it is not)
Shield Grogs are essential but don't protect against most magical effects. Fast cast defense is not in any means weak. In fact I find it overpowered.
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Often allows you to use your strongest arts to defend against all magical effects for which you perceive and understand. You don't even need to worry about the magus having twice or more your arts as you just need to beat the formulaic spell level. Meaning that low levels are easy to deal with & high levels, your Parma should do the trick. Basically, a young magus should be able to have a spontaneous casting total of 25 (Te+Fo+Stm+Talisman attunement) +die +aura +vis -10 (Fast Cast) = 20 for an effect level of 10 which protects against effects of level 20 or less in an aura of zero and no vis. Every vis adds 2 lvls of protection which, with enough vis, makes you invincible for a round or two.
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You can do many fast cast defences in one round as long as you are fast enough & then still attack as normal
All this at the cost of fatigue which is substantial but allows you to bid for time
Your opponent will also likely benefit from a Magic aura.
A young magus is unlikely to have made a talisman yet, so no bonus for that.
Using vis is not an option for fast-casting. ("the maga may not exploit any other spellcasting options")
And of course, you have to be fast enough to get off the fast-cast spell in time.
Fast-cast defences are harder than you make them out to be. A young magus is unlikely to pull off many fast-cast defences unless they are optimized for it, or their opponent is unskilled.
Most magi never get involved in combat mage vs mage. Wizard's wars aren't all that common, and handling rogue magi is what hoplites are for.
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Consider how much easier it is and how much longer it can be maintained if you have one good defensive spell mastered with Fast Casting. Here are a few examples:
ReCo: Level 20 will get you out of the way or out of range of most attacks.
CrTe: Level 10 will make a very-short-duration metal shell around you that will stop most attacks and block sight.
There are many more possibilities. By choosing appropriate spells for yourself, you often get to use your strongest Arts, you get a stronger defensive spell than you can typically manage spontaneously, you've got a spell that you may well not lose Fatigue to (even with the -10) and so can use for longer, you've got a spell you could improve Fast Casting speed for with more mastery, you've got a spell you're less likely to botch than with a typical Fast-Cast spont, and you might even have a spell that serves other purposes (like the example ReCo spell working for transportation).
Trust me, I'm very well known for my use of spontaneous magic; I've surprised a lot of people with how well it can be used. And I don't find this limitation on spontaneous magic to be very severe; certainly no more than a typical Minor Flaw.
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In a fast casting defense vs formulaic offence, only the defending magus benefits (in the ways that count here) of the aura. Talismans are under rated I agree but two seasons to get +3 (sword) to +7 (armor) to defend yourself is not bad. Good enough to get in the 1st 10 years past apprenticeship...
I had not realized that you cannot use Vis. Thank-you.. this does change the dynamics a bit.
As for the commonality of fighting another mage, I'd say that it is true for most but not for the heroes or the PC's that are the center of all the stories. If you mean by uncommon that not all game sessions will require a fast cast defense then we agree but my experience is that every few sessions, we use it and when we use it, it tends to require a lot of it making fatigue the limit not the opportunities of using it.
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Spont defence, I consider more worthwhile for mundane threats where one doesn't want to use the vis stored up, there was some surprise, etc. Fighting a magi, something has gone horribly wrong and if both magi are not in total war mode, I'm confused.
If mages are slinging spells at each other, someone has failed. On a magi vs magi event, one magi should be completely messed up by what should be a no holes barred alpha strike by the other magi.
Maybe not. I think I saw a magus-to-magus fight when we played in 1996.
It was before we had grokked the setting.
Fast-cast defence, if they work at all, would be a lot commoner though, since they also apply to monsters, falling rocks, and all sorts of surprise hazards.
And wizard's war is of course a lot commoner in Hibernia than in the Rhine, to such an extent that any discussion of whether it is or should be common in a saga is meaningless without defining its setting and genre in detail.
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In our Baltic saga, that was the wild west compared to the rest of Novgorod, there was a certain amount of mage-on-mage action, to the point where it became a race between CrAu high PEN one use items vs increasingly potent ReAu wards...
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Generally in a Magi vs Magi fight, if the other guy knows you are about to hit him then you failed the planning stage. I do not mean fighting another Magi or declaring a Wizards War, which is highly dependent on a given saga. I am talking about getting into a situation where the other Magi has a chance to fast cast a defense. You goal should generally be to take the other guy out before he even knows the fight has begun. This applies both if you are playing with traditional Wizards War (must be declared in advance) and "Wild Wild West" shoot'em'up.
As for a fast-cast defense against things other than another Magus, the most effective I have seen in most of the games I played in is some form of Mastered barrier creation spell. Creating an effective barrier that can block both 'line of sight' and damage is fairly low level.
You can find additional information about sponting a 'Fast Cast Defense against Magic' (FCDaM) in the "Dimicatio in Detail" box of HoH:S p.21. Generally you only have to pick a TeFo combo that could effectively defect the attacking spell, without working out the details (such as R/D/T). The effect is closer to the 'force fields' you see magic users throw up in movies and books rather than how a spell normally functions in AM. If it is between 1/2 and Level -1, it deflects the spell which could then strike someone else (Level or higher and it stops it completely). It is much more difficult than just fast casting a Mastered spell which could stop the attack.
As an example, a CrTe spell at level 5 (Base 3, Size +1, T/M/I) can create 10 paces of stone. Designed as a wall and lasting a round, this is sufficient to stop nearly all direct damage spells which depend on line of sight. Comparatively a sponted FCDaM would have a lower casting score and require a higher total. Of course you have to spend time both creating/learning the spell and mastering it. You also could not use such a mastered spell in Dimicatio, which is specifically for sponted 'FCDaM'
The box in HoH:S also talks about using sponted PeVi defense. They function the same as the normal dispelling rules (AM5, p.160) rather than how FCDaM normally functions. So you do need to include a R/D/T. Touch will normally be sufficient when defending yourself (meaning it would dispel attacks of Casting Total + 15 + Stress die [no botch]). You must equal or beat the level of the attacking spell with this method, though it generally is easier to use if you do not have a very high TeFo combination which is effective against the attacking spell. Even a raw beginner just past gauntlet can use it as a non-fatiguing defense against spells of third magnitude or less all of the time and against spells of forth magnitude better than 60% of the time.
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