Minor & Free Social Status Virtues & FLaws, a comparative review

So is there any consensus on which of these, if any, should be proposed for errata?

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In my opinion, at least everything either strictly (- - -) or strictly (+ + +).
Plus Jurist, which I really feel is borderline between (- -) and (- - -), and Surgical Empiricus, partly for balance but mostly for the wonky mechanic.

Agreed, and the 'student' virtues have the drawback of requiring years of a person's time to get the XP, as opposed to other virtues that just give you XP but don't eat up your precious years.

Well, I went ahead and proposed all of them except Surgical Empiricus, as I agree it needs changed but have no useful suggestion to offer as to how.

Neither Baccalaureus, nor Student, "eat up your precious years". They just give you xp on top of the normal 20/15/10xp/year. Student provides 30-60xp, Baccalaureus 90xp (and a reputation, and arguably higher status).

As for adjusting Student and Baccalaureus, it would be easy. Just conflate them into a single:
University Trained
Social Status, Minor
You are, or have been, a student at a University; you may have experience in Latin and Artes Liberales and have 50 extra xp to spend in any ability open to you. Your age is at least 14, +1 per year of completed studies. For each year of completed studies, you should spend approximately 30xp in Latin and/or Artes Liberales, though the fruits of education are different from person to person. If you have completed at least 3 years of study, you may (and typically do) have the title of Baccalaureus and an Academic Reputation of 1.
This Virtue is compatible with any other mundane Social Status Virtue except for Magister in Artibus or Doctor Philosopiae; you should take one of those if you have advanced further in your studies.

As written it only gives 50 XP while suggesting you spend 30/year (i.e. twice as much as you get per year).

That does something very different than the existing virtues do, and is not really compatible with the Magister in Artibus or Doctor in Faculty virtues. And besides, it is incomprehensibly written.

That's exactly the idea. Decouple the xp bonus (a fixed 50xp) from the suggested allocation (roughly 30xp in Latin/Artes Liberales per year of completed studies). Remember, the Virtue should model the result, not the process of learning. It's perfectly ok to allot some of the "standard" 15 xp/year of age to represent what you have learned in your studies.

So, if you want to create a student who's attended 2 years at university, he should be at least 16. Assuming he is 17, he gets, in addition to the "Childhood xp" (Language 5, plus 45xp), the "standard" (17-5)x15=180 xp for his age, plus 50xp on top of that, for a total of 275xp. He should spend roughly 30x2=60xp of those in Latin or Artes Liberales.

So .... after a further 6 years of study (8 years being the time needed to become Magister in Artibus) how many xp would he have gained?

15*6=90

180 of which should be in Latin and Artes Liberales, apparently.

No, the math doesn't work out.

No, the academic virtues aren't supposed to be balanced in pure XP terms, because academics actually get to benefit from good Teaching and good books.

Yes, trying to make them balanced will end up making them suck.

Eh? A magister in Artibus has +240xp on top of his "normal" allocation.

If you want to make a more advanced student, who has progressed beyond Baccalaureus but is not yet a Magister -- let's say 3 years to Baccalaureus, plus another 2, take instead "University Trained" and say, Educated.

Besides, with that proposed virtue an 18-year old who has studied 1 year at a university will have exactly the same amount of xp as an 18-year old who have studied 3 years. The difference being that the 1-year student will have more freedom in assigning his xp.
Not reasonable.

Yes, exactly! 30xp per year of study, just like a Baccalaureues.

It does. Remember, the Virtue is not meant to represent the process just an approximation of the result at a single point in time, that of character creation. Otherwise, why would a Warrior or Well-Travelled character have 50 extra xp without being 3.3 years older?

You have studied 1-4 years? Take University Trained, for +50xp to your "age-based" xp pool, and place 30-120xp more or less from your xp pool into Latin and Artes Liberales. You have studied 5-7? Take Educated on top of that, for a total bonus of +100xp, and place 150-200xp from your pool in Latin and Artes Liberales.

Sure, it's not going to have the finest granularity. But it's ok, some characters do have more or less xp than the "average" for their age. On the other hand. you want Virtues to be as finely balanced as possible in terms of the advantages they provide.

In this sense, Magister in Artibus has often been described as somewhat overgenerous in its xp allocation. Particularly considering it provides a +2 Academic Reputation, in A&A I would have knocked down its bonus to 150-200xp. I would have made Doctor Philosophiae a Minor Virtue that requires the purchase of Magister in Artibus, and provides +50xp, increases your Academic Reputation by 1, and of course provides actual status of Doctor.

And a Doctor in Factulty will then take University Trained plus Educated for 100xp extra. Add 15 xp for each of the 10 years he has studied. Of these 250 xp he should then spend 300 xp on certain Academic abilities.
Something doesn't add up.

Not really, no. They should be roughly balanced such that you don't get "must-have" virtues or virtues that nobody want. But trying to balance them beyond that is not only futile but unnecessary.

As long as we only have Minor and Major virtues, there will be unbalanced virtues - and that is not a serious problem.

It is very reasonable. Both characters have the same age and the same Virtue. They should have the same xp. Sure, the character who has studied 3 years should, but need not, put more xp into Latin/Artes Liberales, so he's a little less flexible in his allocation. At the same time, he can take the title of Baccalaureus and an Academic Reputation 1 for free, to compensate for that very minor rigidity.

Not reasonable. Two extra years of study at a university should provide significant extra knowledge - else why bother studying there?

Two things do not. As mentioned above, University Trained is meant for someone who still has not made it to Magister, never mind to Doctor. But let's assume you are a student who's been sloggin' at it for 10 years without making it to Magister :slight_smile:

The mistake is in the words I highlighted. When you create a character, you get 15xp/year of age beyond childhood. But it does not mean you have to ask yourself "what did my character do when he was 10? If your character became an Outlaw 3 years before, he's not limited to spending 15x3xp on Martial Abillities.

Finally, it's very reasonable to assume that a character who's studied for 10 years without making it to Magister has a very good justification to say, hmm, I'm not going to put 300xp in my studies, only ... 200.

Oh, but they do. Play them out and you get that knowledge.

But we are looking at character creation. At character creation, characters must be balanced. Why are starting PCs who are more Intelligent on average poorer Communicators? I mean, Intelligence should not hinder, and possibly help you, right?

Same with Education. The 3rd year student was lucky to get into University earlier and got more xp during his student years. But for some reason, before that time, the other student was luckier. Perhaps he was a fast learner and that's why eventually they sent him to study at a University, recognizing his talent? The ultimate reason is that they both spent 1 Virtue point on having a better education, so they should end up balanced with each other.

Remember, Virtues model the end result, not the process.
That's why Warrior provides access to Martial Abilities, and +50xp in those. It does not say: "Choose how many years ago you started receiving a Martial Education. For each year in which you did receive such an education, gain 10 extra xp in Martial Abilities. You can place no other xp in Martial Abilties".

I disagree utterly. I mean, it can happen, but it's not intrinsecally necessary, and it's not ok. It's poor game design.

Remember, the Minor / Major label corresponds to the price you pay (+1, or +3 points).
The mechanics correspond to what you get. Once you have decided roughly what you want, eyeball if it falls into the Major or Minor set. Then, fine-tune what you get, so that it exactly balances what you pay.

The wrong way to approach it is to first decide exactly what you get, then eyeball whether it should be Minor or Major, and stop there.