Minor & Free Social Status Virtues & FLaws, a comparative review

Games Discussion Ars Magica
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A few minor social status Virtues are being considered in the errata thread. A crucial aspect is their relative oomph - for example, Almogavar is a Free Virtue that gives access to Martial Abilities, so it's considered a bit overpowered (though I would say it's underpowered as a Minor Virtue). I am going to attempt to list here all the Minor & Free Social Virtues & Flaws in the books (other than Apprentices), briefly commenting on perks and handicaps they provide and thus whether they appear overpowered, underpowered or OK (to my undoubtedly biased judgement) as follows:
(+ + +) significantly overpowered, definitely needs toning down or greater cost
(+ +) somewhat overpowered, might need toning down
(+) slightly better than normal but can be left as it is
(OK) ... self-explanatory :slight_smile:
(-) slightly worse than normal but can be left as it is
(- -) somewhat underpowered, might need a boost
(- - -) significantly underpowered, definitely needs a boost or lower cost

I hope you'll help me pointing out V&Fs or balance issues I've surely missed in this far-from-effortless undertaking.

Minor Social Status Virtues

(OK) 'Alim (RoP:D p.114): good status (a judge, a priest etc.), can take Academic Abilities.
(+) Almogaten (Gr 74): underlings, Martial abilities - basically a Mercenary Captain.
(+ +) Baccalaureus (A&A p.90): 90xp in Latin & Artes Liberales, Academic Reputation 1 , compatible with Priest, Mendicant Friar, and Magus (I would reduce the bonus Latin/AL xp to 50, and allow purchase of more).
(-) Beadle (A&A p.91): modest status, can take Academic Abilities.
(OK) Brother Chaplain (RoP:D p.114): basically a Priest with some slight tweaks.
(+ +) Brother Knight (RoP:D p.114): good status, high-end equipment, can take Martial and Academic Abilities (I would force a choice between the two, as a Custos).
(OK) Brother Priest (RoP:D p.114): basically a Priest with some slight tweaks.
(OK) Brother Sergeant (RoP:D p.114): modest status (warrior), good equipment, can take Martial Abilities.
(-) Bureaucrat (RoP:D p.114): modest status (e.g. scribe), can take Academic Abilities.
(-) Clerk (RoP:D p. 26): modest status, can take Academic Abilities.
(OK) Custos (ArM5 p. 41): good status, can take either Academic, Arcane, or Martial Abilities, plus speak Latin.
(- - -) Domestic Animal (Gr p74): you are a dog, horse, etc. who works for food and shelter ... and they call it a Virtue?!? This should be Free, not Minor.
(OK) Eastern Priest (RoP:D p.114): basically a Priest with some slight tweaks.
(OK) Emir (RoP:D p.115): basically a Knight: good status, can take Martial Abilities.
(-) Eunuch (SE p.38): modest status, Academic abilities.
(OK) Factor (C&G p.108): Wealth (100-250L/y), underlings, and significant political power.
(OK) Failed Apprentice (ArM5, revised in new errata): pity by magi, access to all abilities.
(+ +) Falconer (LoM, p.61): good status, possibly a few helpers, 50xp to spend on appropriate abilities (including Latin!)
(-) Fida'i (tC&tC p.164): modest status (low rank assassin), Martial Abilities
(-) Gentleman (ArM5 p.42): a minor member of a noble house, can occasionally ask for help, but must also help out. No other perks.
(- - -) Guild Apprentice/Journeyman: basically a craftsman in a place where the craft is controlled by a guild.I think it should be downgraded to Free.
(OK) Guild Master: one of the masters of a guild: status, income (up to 40L/y), may take Academic abilities.
(- -) Jurist (A&A p.91): Modest status, may take Latin, Artes Liberales, and Civil and Canon Law (I would give 60 free xp in Latin & Artes Liberales - and balance with Baccalaureus in any case).
(OK) Knight (ArM5 p.45): status, high end equipment, and martial abilities.
(+ +) Lone Redcap (HoHTL p.100): redcap, without the longevity/enchantment perks, Bad Reputation 2, access to all abilities and 300 apprentice xp (effectively +75xp), plus Well-Travelled. A bit generous compared to other social status, not if compared to Redcap.
(- - -) Lupus (A&A p.91): modest status, can take Latin or Artes Liberales, the latter rarely beyond 1. should probably be fixed to Latin AND Artes Liberales in the errata (I would downgrade to Free, forcing purchase of Latin 4+, giving the option of Artes Liberales 1).
(-) Mamluk (RoP:D p.115): modest status (warrior), can take Martial Abilities & Theology.
(+ + +) Marshal (LoM, p.61): good status, a few helpers, Martial Abilities, 50xp to spend on appropriate abilitiese (including Latin!) - I would remove Martial Abilities, bringing in line with Falconer
(+ + +) Master of Kennels (LoM, p.61): good status, possibly a few helpers, Martial Abilities, 50xp to spend on appropriate abilitiese (including Latin!) - I would remove Martial Abilities, bringing in line with Falconer
(OK) Mazdean Priest (tC&tC p.93): a priest of the mazdean faith, the social virtue for mobeds. Status & Academic abilities but crucially not Arcane ones.
(-) Mendicant Friar (ArM5 p.46): modest status, academic abilities, ordination (and thus a priest's mystical stuff) if desidered.
(+) Mercenary Captain (ArM5 p.46): underlings, Martial abilities.
(OK) Merchant Venturer (C&G p.108): A ship and a crew, generating wealth (40-100L/y).
(+ +) Office holder (TC p.125): great status, extreme resources, underlings, Good Reputation 2, compatible with appropriate Social Status Virtues (I'd probably remove the Reputation)
(OK) Partner (C&G p.109): Can substitute for factor, merchant adventurer (or merchant).
(OK) Priest (ArM5 p. 47, and TC p. 26): good status, some limitations, some very minor supernatural perks, can take Academic Abilities (Academic Abilities disappeared from TC p. 26, should be fixed in the errata).
(- - -) Rabbi (RoPD p.135): basically a Priest who must purchase Academic Abilities with a separate, not so good Virtue. I think it should at the very minimum get access Academic Abilities, or be downgraded to a Free Virtue, albeit probably a (+) one because of the status.
(-) Religious (TC p.26): modest status (ordained), can take Academic Abilities.
(OK) Schadchan (RoPD p.135): status with interesting potential (a matchmaker), 50xp in social abilities/area lore, compatible with other Social V&Fs.
(OK to - -) Simple Student (A&A p. 92): 30xp per year completed in Latin and/or Artes Liberales (weak for a first year student).
(- - -) Sufi (RoP:D p.115): basically, you are paying 1 Virtue Point to take (without compensation) a Minor Story Flaw, access to Theology, Dominion Lore, Islamic Law. Terrible. This should be a Minor Story Flaw.
(+ +) Templar Administrator (TC p.125): good status, possibly extreme resources, can take Academic Abilities (I'd probably either bump down the resources a little, or remove the Academic abilities)
(OK) Town Magistrate (C&G p.29) good status, underlings, academic abilities.
(-) Turb Trained (Gr p.76) modest status, plus Martial Abilities & Speak Latin (or whatever the magi speak). Basically, Custos without the status & with less ability choice.
(- - -) University Grammar Teacher (A&A p.92): Modest status, may take Latin and Artes Liberales (I would give 60 free xp in Latin & Artes Liberales - and balance with Baccalaureus in any case).
(OK) Vizier (tC&tC p.30): Status & responsibilities, Reputation 3, essentially Hermetic Prestige for Sahirs only.
(-) Wise One (ArM5 p.50): Modest status, may take either Arcane or Academic Abilities.

Free Social Status Virtues

(+ + +) Almogavar (Gr p.74): modest status (mercenary), can take Martial Abilities (this should be a Minor Virtue, though it would be a weak one - compare with various modest status + Restricted Abilities ones).
(+ + +) Amazon (RM p. 18): modest status, can take Martial Abilities (this should probably be a Minor Virtue (see Almogavar), though perhaps not necessarily in an all-Amazon saga).
(OK) Amazon sorceress (RM p.19): must be Gifted, access to "any Amazon ability" including Martial & Arcane ones.
(OK) Baal Shem (RoPD p.135): basically a mystic craftsman (no perks or handicaps included).
(OK) Confrere (TC p.124) Why the French? A tag-on to say you are an associate ("Brother") of the Templars, compatible with other Social Status V&Fs.
(+ + +) Court Wizard (RM p.67). An ambivalent Reputation 1, and a generous employer who only asks you to spend 1 season/year working, and gives help, hirelings, laboratory space, +1 Living conditions, possibly even vis! Should be a Major Virtue, unless it is restricted e.g. to Virgilians, which it is not as written. Compatible e.g. with Priest or Magister in Artibus.
(OK) Covenfolk (ArM5, p. 41). Vanilla covenfolk, no perks or handicaps.
(+) Craftsman (ArM5, p.41). A free, vanilla craftman, no perks or handicaps, possibly with a fair income (up to 20L/y) depending on craft.
(OK to + + +) Folk Witch (HMRE p.34). A folk witch, compatible with other social status. N.B. no access to extra abilities per se. However, a Folk witch has undergone an apprenticeship, and there received 20xp/year of any abilities for 10 years. Tricky to balance: probably (OK to +) for companions, who have many other equally good or better (but mostly not as flexible) traditions to choose from, simply awesome (+ + +) for grogs.
(OK) Hermetic magus - the social aspect of being a Gifted Hermetic magus
(OK) Laborer (C&G; p.53) No perks or handicaps.
(OK) Mathematicus (HMRE p.80) A tag for the tradition, with no perks or handicaps per se. A Mathematicus gains 30xp/year during training, but must take at least one Form (Minor Virtue) and one Technique (Major).
(+) Merchant (ArM5, p.46) A merchant, no perks or handicaps, possibly with a good income (up to 40L/y).
(OK) Mustajib (tC&tC p.164) a Nizari Sahir, but balanced: can take Academic & Arcane abilities, must have Sihr.
(OK) Nuntus (A&A, p.91). A paid messenger.
(OK) Peasant (ArM5, p.47). A free, vanilla peasant, no perks or handicaps.
(OK to + +) Sahir (tC&tC p.30) Academic & Arcane abilities, must take another social status, must be able to summon a spirit or take Dark Secret, 30/25/15xp/y depending on Wealth from that point onwards. Mostly OK, but could be abused with a Sahir companion "almost devoid" of magical power.
(OK) Soqotran Sorcerer - only available to (Gifted) Soqotran Sorcerers
(-) Shamash (RoPD p.135) A servant of the Synagogue, with some interesting social potential, must purchase Educated (Hebrew).
(-) Sofer (RoPD p.135). Modest status (scribe with holy duty), must purchase Educated (Hebrew).
(OK) Storm Wizard (AtD p.130) a Gifted storm wizard, no inherent perks or handicaps.
(OK) Wanderer (ArM5 p.50) Free as a rolling stone, no perks or handicaps.

Minor Social Status Flaws (note that an "overpowered" Flaw means it's less of a Flaw than it should).

(+ + +) Branded Criminal (ArM5 p.52): a criminal brand on the cheek, martial abilities. Value depends on how much "brand" is played up. I'd probably upgrade to Free.
(OK to +) Failed Journeyman (C&G p.52), Bad Reputation 2 in town, cast out of guild
(OK) Failed Master (C&G p.52), Bad Reputation 4 in town, must work as journeyman
(+ + +) Failed Monk: Bad Reputation 2, Academic Abilities. I'd probably upgrade to Free
(+) Gabai (RoPD p.136): a tax collector, with a Bad Reputation 2, compatible with other Social Status
(+ +) Outcast (ArM5 p.57) no place in society or covenant, but no extra handicaps (or perks). I'd probably upgrade to Free (-)
(+) Outlaw Leader (ArM5 p.57): martial abilities, a Bad Reputation 3, a small gang of unruly followers, and the law actively seeking you out - Companions only.
(OK to +) Outsider for grogs (RoPD p.136): a Bad Reputation of level 1 to 3 outside immediate community, that cannot be lost (compare with Social Handicap).
(+ +) Surgical Empiricus (A&A p.56) Must halve Surgery score when not using specialty. Abusable, poor mechanic. I'd just change it.
(OK) Usurer (HoHTL p.109) Bad Reputation 4, modest income (10L/y).

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I feel like you seriously undervalue things like “ship and crew” or “mercenary band.”

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Could you elaborate? I value ship & crew at about 0.9 Virtue points, whereas I value a band of 5-10 mercenaries you have to provide for at maybe ... 0.6 Virtue points. A band of 3-6 unruly outlaws who frequently challenge your authority? 0.3 points.

Anyway, it's a work in progress. Now that I have all the data together it's much easier to adjust stuff.
I must confess that seeing all of them together certain things really stand out as they did not before.

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I would not say I had any sort of rigor but a bunch of those I would rate at least one more + than you did. Definitely the Merchant Adventurer is better than OK. I’d probably rate Almogaten, Mercenary Captain, and Merchant Adventurer all as ++. While the social status of each isn’t particularly high, it does provide a certain sort of freedom, even from the covenant. I would probably put the Outlaw leader in the same camp as well.

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Changing the amount of XP you get from Baccalaureus would make things very strange since it works just the same as the other "university-trained" virtues (Simple Student, Magister in Artibus, Doctor in Faculty) and gives 30 xp per year. Just about every Doctor in Faculty would have gone through all the earlier stages in order while getting all the xp.
Sure, they are not all equally strong but that is an artifact of there being only Minor and Major virtues.

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The crux is that not all xp you gained in your studies must "come" from the Virtue. One can just say "this Virtue provides at least 50xp that you can spend on Academic Abilities. Normally, you should have about 30/year of study but you can have more or less dependiing on how your studies went".

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Keep in mind that Mercenary Captain (which is almost identical to Almogaten) gives you access to Martial Abilities. Merchant Venturer does not (although, sure, it gives you access to money). I have already accounted slightly for the extra freedom of Merchant Venturer (0.1-0.2 Virtue points)? That's the reason it's not worse than Factor.

In general, keep in mind that if you lead others, you have much less freedom :slight_smile: It's not that a ship captain can say "oh, I feel like .. sailing to Crete, you know?". Note that even if you have two free seasons/year, it's not as if your ship does -- those two free seasons account for the time at the wharf, the time spent at rest while sailing etc.

Still, all comments are welcome. And obviously it's hard to price relative to each other, say, wealth and xp, outside the context of a saga. That said, it's obvious that in some pairs of things priced equally, one is clearly inferior and should be, if not repriced, adjusted. Take Brother Knight and Mamluk, for example.

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I don’t know your formula but I suspect you are valuing “grants access to restricted ability category” as more than I would. Most of those characters that need that will take a different virtue that also grants access and xp such as Warrior for the Almogaten. The big thing for me is the freedom/income and the personal retainers, crew, etc.

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So ... a Magister in Artibus gets 240 extra xp after 8 years of study, or 30 xp/year.
A Simple Student gets 30xp after 1 year of study and another 30xp after his second year.

When that Simple Student finishes his third year of study, getting his Baccalaureus exam, it would look strange if that didn't give him another 30xp. If he then continues his studies towards Magister in Artibus the xp calculation would be odd if he suddenly has to compensate for not having gotten 90xp after the first 3 years of study.

My point is that while Baccalaureus may look a bit strong when looked at in isolation, it would be hard to adjust it without adjusting all the other "university-trained" as well.

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One thing I tried to do was to value the different perks so that most of the corebook Virtues came out roughly balanced. In other words, the corebook seems to suggest that Knight is worth as much as Mercenary Captain, so I tend to assume that noble status plus superior equipment is roughly on par with another 4-9 underlings you have to provide for.

Also, yes, I value "gives access to restricted ability set" highly ... because then I do not need to take another Virtue such as Warrior :slight_smile:

Last but not least. The reason I focused on Minor & Free was that I am mainly interested in grogs :slight_smile: That may change one's perception.

11

I almost never feel there is enough xp for non-magi and usually take one of the xp granting virtues… but then my friends complain that I make character with way too many abilities at low levels as opposed to giving them 6s in three that they use a lot. “They’re a Mercenary captain who has been all over the place, of course they have a few languages at low level and some Area Lores.”

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You'd still need a way to summon a spirit though. So that's probably a Major virtue right there, making it a rather expensive way to get access to a few categories of abilites - especially if you're not planning to use the arcane ones by being almost devoid of magical power.

Also, what's this non-sense?

tC&tC p. 32 clearly states that

and on p. 33:

In short, Sahirs must support the House of Wisdom, they are not (economically) supported by the House of Wisdom.

Other that that, a couple of these are ... very saga dependent.
If money matters but reputations are mostly ignored or irrelevant, obviously Usurers are great. If reputations matter greatly but silver's fairly available, Usurers are horrible.
Most of my more recent sagas would have rated that Bad Reputation 4 as only slightly less destructive that Leprosy.

EDIT: Formatting

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Tellus, I am just going with what the Virtue says. If there's a mismatch between what the Virtue says and other portions of the text, that's a different reason why it should be fixed. In any case, getting this list done was a fairly heavy undertaking, so I would not be surprised at all if I made some mistakes :slight_smile:

Sahir
Free, Social Status
By demonstrating to the Majlis that he can summon a spirit, the character has been accepted into the Suhhar and is affiliated with a magical academy known as a bayt al-hikma, or “house of wisdom.” He is obliged to further the Suhhar’s causes for one season every year, but is supported by them and benefits from increased access to its teachers, books, and vis sources. During character creation, the character may take appropriate Academic or Arcane Abilities. If the character does not actually possess the power to summon a spirit, he should take the Dark Secret Story Flaw, as he will be immediately expelled from the Suhhar when this fact is discovered.

Oh, and by the way, there are ways to summon a spirit with just a Minor Virtue.

Last but not least, as I said before yes some advantages are not really comparable. But there are Virtues that clearly dominate another, in that they give you all that other gives you, plus more. Spotting those "comparable" was the purpose of this exercise.

For example, it's clear that either Amazon and Almogavar should be upgraded to Minor Virtues, or a whole lot of other Minor Virtues that essentially only give you access to Martial Abilities should be downgraded to Free Virtues.
It's clear that Lupus, that only gives you access to Latin (and requires you to learn it to 4+) and Artes Liberales (probably to no more than 1+) is too weak for a Minor Virtue, and/or Baccalaureus (that not only gives you access to those two abilities, but 90xp in them and an Academic Reputation to boot) is too strong. Etc.

How do I put a + on one and a - on the other, rather than, say ++ and OK or OK and - -? Basically, you'll notice I am almost always OKing the Virtues in the corebook (occasionally a single + or -), that effectively represent among them almost the entire gamut of little perks and handicaps that you also find elsewhere, just sliced and put together differently and in different contexts.
So in some sense, the corebook is very roughly the bar for me.

2 Likes
14

I don't understand these evaluations when compared to each other. The Mathematicus gets an apprenticeship, too:

Each year that the learned magician trains under a master he gains 30 experience points...

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There are two reasons.

First, I did the Folk Witch first, and then realized that for all other traditions I would have to "hunt" for what being part of that tradition really meant too... and I decided it was too much work !! So that's the "OK" part in the Folk Witch.

Second, and this is a big catch: a Mathematicus must be a companion, with a very limited range of other Social Statuses avaliable, while a Folk Witch can be a grog, with any other (grog) social status available. So, basically, by choosing Mathematicus you are making a big "commitment" - you are saying your companion will not be a Redcap, or a Faerie, or ... whatever. But if you need to "pump up" a grog, make that grog a Folk Witch and there you are. Does that make sense?

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Yes, that is true. As far as I recall, the Folk Witch is the only tradition of any Realm open to grogs.

Yes, I'm totally with you there. But, if we're comparing the Companion ends, isn't +10/year of training (Companion Mathematicus v. Companion Folk Witch) > +5 (Grog Folk Witch v. other Grog)? I don't think the Companion end of them should be rated the same if this is considered a big bump for the Grog.

17

Well, as I stated above, I started this exercise mostly with grogs in mind :slight_smile: even though I ended up doing all the Minor & Free V&Fs anyways, even those open to companions only.

But yes, you are correct ... even though, the impact is much less on a companion -- it gets eclipsed by the fact that, by and large, Mathematici are stronger than Folk Witches based solely on their magical talents (and on the fact tthat their Ordeals are stuff like "ok you can use your powers a little less well than a Gifted Mathematicus" rather than Age Quickly).

An interesting question is: which Companion traditions can be abused as follows?
Choose a concept unrelated to the tradition. Say, a knight. Try to make the best possible knight purchasing only ... knightly V&Fs, abilities etc. Then pick up that tradition, say a Mathematicus. Create a Mathematicus with the very minimum in terms of V&Fs and abilities to be a Mathematicus, with the idea you'll never use them. Exploit the extra xp, free restricted abilities etc. to obtain a better knight than the "pure" knight you had first designed.

So summarizing, my first reaction was "wait, but a folk witch grog can get a lot of perks - this deserves a +++!" Then, I thought, "wait, but almost every tradition gets a lot of perks ... ok, let's write it's tricky, and write simply OK to +++" noting that the +++ is meant for grogs :slight_smile:

18

What I was trying to say was that I think you're overinterpreting the text of the virtue. Eg, it never does say that the House of Wisdom supports you like a Hermetic Covenant.
I can see why it can be read that way, and I certainly agree that the phrasing of the virtue could be better, but it doesn't actually say what you indicate that it says

I'm deeply impressed with the amount of work you must've put into the project, in such a short time. Make no mistake about that! ... pun not intended. :roll_eyes:

19

Actually, you are right. Thanks for pointing it out. It's been a long time since we had a Sahir in our saga.
The way it works is: you have to support the Suhhar for 1 season/year, AND you have to work the "usual" 1/2/3 seasons/year; but many of those jobs, e.g. Teaching, count as supporting the Suhhar, so it's still the usual 1/2/3 seasons. I've fixed it.
On the other hand, the Virtue does point to the "increased access to teachers etc." which mechanically - from the end of p.32 - translates into a bonus of +10xp/year (unless Poor, in which case the bonus is +5). That's ... significant, I think.

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Hugely significant.