While that's true, you are still forbidden from using Vis except for lab activities, and a LR is NOT a lab activity.
Incorrect. It does not say that you are forbidden from using Vis except for lab activities. It says that "you can not use Vis when you cast spells".
This is the actual text:
You cannot use vis when you cast spells. Thus, you cannot increase your spell rolls or cast Ritual magic. You can use vis in the laboratory.
That last bit implies that you cannot use vis unless it's a lab activity. That is why I think it needs to be clarified, so there is no dispute about whether someone with this Flaw can or cannot renew a LR.
I know what it says and I believe you are mischaracterizing it.
EDIT: I was half asleep when I first wrote this and could not be more clear at the time.
The first sentence provides the restriction, with the following sentences provide clarifications of that restriction. There are other non-spell actions that are not lab activities in which Vis might be spent (i.e. Certamen, Study from Vis). These are not covered by the restriction or mentioned in a clarification, so they may be performed.
Mechanically a longevity ritual does seem like a ritual spell- there are vis limits based on your scores, it does not require a season of work once invented, the only difference is that the vis required is based on your age rather than the effect level (and it has an incredibly long duration). I mean it isn't a straight up clearly a spell effect, but it is certainly more of a gray area than say studying from vis which is almost a lab activity that doesn't need to be done in the lab.
The following Social Statuses are notably over- or underpowered, and deserve serious consideration for nerfs or buffs as indicated below:
Overpowered Minor, should be nerfed
- Marshal (LoM p61), remove access to Martial Abilities to bring in line with Falconer
- Master of Kennels (LoM p61), remove access to Martial Abilities to bring in line with Falconer
Underpowered Minor, should be buffed or demoted to Free
- Domestic Animal (Grogs p74) demote to Free
- Guild Apprentice/Journeyman (C&G p44-45) demote to Free
- Jurist (A&A p.91) retain as Minor and grant 50-60XP in the four specific Academic Abilities to which it gives access.
- Lupus (A&A p91) either demote to Free and require Latin 4+, or retain as Minor and grant 50-60XP in Latin and Artes Liberales.
- Rabbi (RoPD p135) either demote to Free, or retain as Minor and add Academic Ability access.
- Sufi (RoPD p115) exceptionally bad; demote past Free all the way to Minor Story Flaw.
- University Grammar Teacher (A&A p92) grant 50-60XP in Latin and Artes Liberales.
Overpowered Free, should be promoted to Minor
- Almogavar (Grogs p74)
- Amazon (RM p18) (with a note that it can remain Free in all-Amazon sagas)
- Court Wizard (RM p67) exceptionally strong; promote to Major (compare Wealthy)
- Folk Witch (HMRE p34) somewhat problematic: acceptable as-is for companions, but amazing for grogs. Even promoted to Minor it will still be one of the strongest Virtues for grogs, but not unacceptably so imo, and I enjoy Folk Witch grogs being allowed to exist in terms of setting and story. As Free, however, it is egregiously overpowered.
Overpowered Minor Flaw, should be promoted to Free or otherwise changed
- Branded Criminal (ArM5 p52), promote to Free? Varies widely with how much the saga cares about grog-level social interactions
- Failed Monk/Nun (RoPD p93), promote to Free
My thanks to @ezzelino for their work compiling and initially rating the minor and free social statuses here.
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No, it does not imply that. That last bit is just a clarification that even if you can't use vis for casting spells, you can still use it in the lab.
As regards non-spell casting, non-lab activities that happen to require vis, the flaw is silent so the assumption must be that no special restriction applies to such activities.
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What makes these so overpowered (in your opinion/saga)?
They give 50 XPs and access to an ability category - similar to Educated, which is often adviced against. Yes, they also contain a social status, but those can be free. While these virtues even come with a list of skills you should take (that is, spend XPs on).
Also, taking Martial abilities away from the Marshal seems ... silly.
I kinda agree with these, mostly. Most of them do give a status element as well though. Less quantified but potentially relevant.
Most of these are ... fairly problematic. Several of these, I'd just as happily just remove, or restrict to companions at the very least.
Very true. But you are literally branded - that social penalty is almost as persistent as that of the Gift
I actually like this one as it is. But then, social penalties matter in most of our sagas, and this one comes with a huge social hit against you.
The only thing I am not 100% sure is really the Folk Witch one.
I love Folk Witch grogs. And they just get three minor Virtues, so if you upgrade their social status they have very little left. My suggestion would be to either keep it as is or to say that grogs (and perhaps companions?) created as folk witches do not get any extra experience for their apprenticeship - they are created with the standard 15xp/year - and have "extra" access not to any category of abilities, but only to those used in any Folk Witch magical activity: as far as I can tell, these are Folk Witch Magic Theory, Penetration, and Magic Lore (to enrich items of Virtue).
They give you:
a) high status within a noble household (almost comparable to the "least" nobility)
b) access to martial abilities (which by itself is worth a low-end minor social status)
c) underlings
d) 50xp to spend on a number of useful abilities including Latin.
That's significantly more than the typical minor Virtue.
Sort of; it can be hidden, and it's something in your past that you can explain away. Compare it with a Social Handicap, and note that you are getting Martial Abilities for free - which by itself is worth a low-end Minor Virtue.
This I will give you right away - access to martial abilities is nice. But then, I tend to be of the opinion that virtues that give you nothing but access to abilities are probably underpowered. Again, compare to Educated or Warrior - both of which I see noted as "sub optimal virtues" often enough to remember them as such.
Compare to craft/guild training and status:craftsman for a craft such as goldsmith, and this is not that far out of line- a craftsman can have journeymen and apprentices, additional training and be well respected non-nobles. Marshal and master of kennels gives a relatively high position as a servant within a noble household, which is a far cry from having actual social status.
Even if they are slightly overpowered, they also tend to be very rare. In general you will not have more than one grog who is a member of the Covenant or noble household with each and only if them have the matching facilities.
The underlings they each have are fairly common. Huntsmen and Grooms are roughly on par with Laborers. They are not combat capable or craftsmen. While the Marshal has the potential to oversea some craftsmen, they would have to be running a fairly large stables for it to have a dedicated full time smith and leather worker. Most stables will not have these dedicated craftsmen, but instead make up a small portion of the work they perform.
Marshal is not, per LoM, a military title*; it's the guy in charge of running your stables: buying horses, overseeing the breeding of horses, hiring and managing the grooms, treating the animals (Profession (Marshal) functions as Medicine for veterinary purposes), and managing the purchase and maintenance of tack, harness, horseshoes, saddles, etc (either by purchase or by craftsmen employed under his authority).
*The noted exception is the Marshal of England, who is in charge of the king's cavalry.
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"This person is called a marshal, and the title holds considerable honor. The Marshal of England
is the king’s official in charge of his cavalry, but even the marshal of a baron is an important personage"
A master craftsman can indeed have journeymen and apprentices, but it's a Minor Virtue yielding access to Academic abilities and nothing else. A Marshal at least equals him in status, has a greater number and variety of underlings, access to a similarly restricted class of abilities (martial rather than academic) and 50xp on top of that. That's a bit too much.
A Marshal has higher status than a Mercenary captain, equal access to martial abilities, a similar number and variety of underlings, and and 50xp on top of that.
Etc. Really, I suggest you look at the whole lot of Minor V&Fs that was left up for discussion for a couple of days as a whole. That provides a much better sense of the comparative worth of Social Status Minor & Free V&Fs.
The underlings of a Marshal are no where near the capabilities of the underlings of a Mercenary Captain. For most of them their only underlings will be Grooms, which while I am friends with many are not a high skilled position. You average Marshal will not have a full time blacksmith or leather worker on staff, since they do not have a high enough demand (or their employer does not have enough income to keep underutilized craftsmen on staff). Baring exceptional figures (the Marshal of England is NOT normal) they do not have any men-at-arms or combat capable underlings.
The Marshal of England should not even come up in discussion of the Virtue, since in 1220 the position was a hereditary position held by knighted noblemen. It was an Earl at the time (where Earl Marshal comes from) before eventually becoming a Duke.
If we created niches for every comparison in titles we are going to need a lot more categories than minor or major. In the unussual case where a marshal is also a titled position they can simply be allowed to have an additional status, but I certainly wouldn't see a marshal, who takes care of cavalry horses being a higher title than a warrior, which is essentially a non-noble soldier, and a minor virtue.
Having done a bit more research, I would like to withdraw my objection to removing martial abilities from the Marshal. I still don't see it as necessary, but I have no objection.
I have two problems with this:
- A lot of it doesn't feel like errors so much as preferences. So I was much happier seeing it in another thread. David's attention can certainly be drawn to other threads when needed.
- Much of the magical part seems to disregard the Gift or the additional costs associated with it as well as Hermetic Magus. Hermetic Magus gives you 240 experience and 120 spell levels over 15 years instead of your normal 225 experience. Those 120 spell levels are theoretically in the ballpark of 3 seasons of instruction worth about 10 experience apiece, so Hermetic Magus gives on the order of 45 extra experience as well as letting you pick up an additional point of Virtues. If I take Amazon with my Gifted character, is it worth so much more than Hermetic Magus? Meanwhile, for the unGifted, you tend to be required to spend at least 4 points in Virtues and need to match them with appropriate Flaws for Ordeals out of your initial allotment to even be able to take this Free Social Status. So the question for Companions should really be if this 4+ points of required Virtues should really be 5+ points of Virtues, not whether this sole 0-point Virtue should be a 1-point Virtue. That's why the note showed up in the first of these posts about Folk Witch being acceptable for a Companion.