Minor Magical focus in Humors

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

I'm in the process of doing character generation for a game in which I'm going to be the story guide.

One of the players, who is new to the game, created a magus who has a minor magical focus with humors. On the surface that sounds fascinating. Yet when coming up with ideas as to what spells and effects his focus can apply to I end up with a pretty sparse list.

Would anyone care to help me fill out the possibilities of a a focus in humors? I realize that this is sort of the players job, and if they can do it, well that's excellent. But if they end up frustrated, then I won't have a new fan of our game. We'll all be a bit poorer, but me the most.

I think that the four form of the [temperament] heart beast spells from Mystery Cults p. 36 are all good, they'd need to be raised to range touch to target a different creature but that's fine.

Page 40 of Art and Academe tells me that to do complextional magic requires a minor breakthrough. I'm planning to either ignore this or say that this is a breakthrough that the PC already has. I think we'll have more fun not having to work through a decade or more of in-game time to get full use out of the character's focus.

I'm thinking to allow a Muto Corpus (or should it be Rego Corpus?) spell to generate any of the personality traits from the text box on page 40 of Art and Academe along with the appropriate symptoms for over expression of a humor from the text box on page 44 of the same book. Creo mentem can create an emotion at base 4. I'm thinking that base 5 for this corpus effect would be fair from a balance perspective. It is not only higher level than the Creo mentem method, but it is also more limited and has a the drawback of symptoms. It is also the same base level as the temperament heart beast spells.

Another option would be the use of spells that create or manipulate the humors directly. Things like Wall of Phlegm, Mighty Torrent of Bile, or Bind Wound.

A spell to keep the humors in balance and thereby render some diseases harmless until the duration expires is reasonable. Would you put that as base level 10 Rego Corpus, equivalent to eliminating the penalties for fatigue or wounds?

It's a (potentially) good idea and I want to open up possibilities for the player to do some fun stuff with it. I'm eager to hear ideas. (and criticism of what I posted)

2 Likes
2

arte and acadamie p. 57

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I would only mention, that this is the critical issue about this focus.

It could be described to cover so many aspects of Animal, Corpus and Mentem, that it easily might exceed the limits of a Major Focus by far.
Each animal is aligned to a humor, human bodies, diseases and cures are governed by humors, human personalities and emotions likewise, and this is just the beginning.

Even constellations and thereby months are categorized by humors (TMRE p.56 box Signs by Categories).

4

Eeew.
That is very inventive. What would the numbers for these?

When I first saw the headline, I immediately thought about medical spells, where the imbalanced humours are adjusted to cure a disease or condition. I did not think about how temperaments and personalities would be affected, not the direct conjuration of said humours.

BTW would bile be corrosive, or have other health effects on the poor target soaked in in, other than just being nasty?

5

Which of these versions of a complexion altering spell do you think is the most appropriate? (Or would you handle it significantly differently?)

Melancholic Evocation of Loyalty
MuCo 20
R: Eye, D: Sun, T: Ind.
By altering the balance of the target's humors the caster is able to raise the loyalty personality trait of the target by 3 points (i.e 0 to +3, or -2 to +1). However as a byproduct of the target's unbalanced humors, they digest their food very slowly and feel constipated, if this spell is maintained on a target for more then a day the target will suffer from increasing ill effects including insomnia, fever, and extreme pain.
(Base 5, +1 eye, +2 sun)

or is that too precise of an alteration? Perhaps this would be better?

Evocation of the Melancholic Personality
MuCo 20
R: Eye, D: Sun, T: Ind.
By altering the balance of the target's humors the caster is able to raise all of the melancholic personality traits of the target by 3 points (i.e 0 to +3, or -2 to +1). These include,

  • Caring,
  • Loyal,
  • Sensitive,
  • Altruistic,
  • Creative,
  • Idealistic,
  • Generous,
  • Just,
  • Pessimistic,
  • Pompous,
  • Vengeful,
  • Touchy,
  • Unsociable,and
  • Envious
    However as a byproduct of the target's unbalanced humors, they digest their food very slowly and feel constipated, if this spell is maintained on a target for more then a day the target will suffer from increasing ill effects including insomnia, fever, and extreme pain.
    (Base 5, +1 eye, +2 sun)

Or should it be both precise and flexible ?

Evocation of a Specific Melancholic Personality
MuCo 20
R: Eye, D: Sun, T: Ind.
By altering the balance of the target's humors the caster is able to raise one of the melancholic personality traits of the target by 3 points (i.e 0 to +3, or -2 to +1). The traits that the caster may choose to raise include,

  • Caring,
  • Loyal,
  • Sensitive,
  • Altruistic,
  • Creative,
  • Idealistic,
  • Generous,
  • Just,
  • Pessimistic,
  • Pompous,
  • Vengeful,
  • Touchy,
  • Unsociable,and
  • Envious
    However as a byproduct of the target's unbalanced humors, they digest their food very slowly and feel constipated, if this spell is maintained on a target for more then a day the target will suffer from increasing ill effects including insomnia, fever, and extreme pain.
    (Base 5, +1 eye, +2 sun)
2 Likes
6

Honestly I have trouble with using co to affect personality traits, at minimum there should be a Me requisit.

7

If I added a Mentem requisite, which version would look the best to you?

8

I prefer the third option posibly with a higher base? Also I think this should work against health regimens. So any casting of such a spell negates a health regimen for that person, and might even give a penalty to aging rolls if it is cast on a person who is not following a regimen at all

With those nasty side effects I could live with the current base or even lower it.

Bob

9

That the mind is involved in emotions is a modern interpretation. The medieval concept -- that emotions come from the humours and the bodily organs -- is still present in our language. We talk about being heartbroken, or having a gut feeling about something. If someone is angry then they might vent their spleen. There are countless other examples. I would love for Corpus to be the art for emotions, restricting Mentem only to the appetitive urges of fear, lust, hunger, and the need for comfort.

Mark

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10

It may be a modern idea, but it is part of the mentem guidelines, and not part of the Co guidelines. I suspect though that it is just as much period to believe it comes from the soul or spirit which would be vim if we want to play fast and loose with the rules, although most ghosts again come under mentem, and do have emotions despite their lack of bodies...
if anything I would reverse that approach, leaving the "higher" emotions with mentem and allowing that possibly lust anger, hunger (basically the 7 deadly sins) might be able to be associated with corpus, though even there it isn't something I would use in my game. An emotion having a physical manifestation does not make it an emanation of corpus- you are heart broken because you have been hurt emotionally, damage to ones heart does not affect their sense of love.

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Perhaps a different argument might be more persuasive, but I'm not yet at all tempted to say that the spells won't work or that they'd require a mentem requisite.

The idea is cool and it leverages the particulars of the setting in an interesting way. The spells are not only of higher magnitude than the equivalent mentem effects, they're also tied to a significant drawback. They don't strike me as abusive. (If someone has a good game balance argument to share I'd be open to hearing it. I've frequently been persuaded by them).

I see either forcing a mentem requisite or disallowing the spells as having the drawbacks of making the game less fun, less coherent, and more rulesy, (sort of like the way that flight was tied to Auram in previous editions). Meanwhile, I don't see any benefit at all to adding either restriction, (at the moment, I'm still willing to listen).

Upon a reread, I sound pretty harsh. I'm actually delighted that you all took the time to respond to me. thank you all. Please don't mistake my disagreement for dislike or lack of appreciation.

12

I can see the messing with health regimens bit. That makes some sense. Yet the spell is muto, not rego. At the end of the spell's duration, I'd expect the target's natural complextion to be returned immediately. I don't think that I'd mess with aging modifiers for shorter duration effects -certainly not if the spell were cast 10 minutes prior to sun rise. I'm undecided as to how long it would take to force a penalty. The positive side to my uncertainty is that I'd like the players and characters not to be certain either.

13

I honestly hadn't looked at the level at this point- there are two ways of looking at it in terms of guidelines:

  1. you are ballancing a CrMe base 4 effect with a PeCo base 3 effect, and placing it under muto, in a percise enough tradeof that these are choices someone would not make together unless it was necessary or gave them a signifigant bonus- to me this could be put down as a MuCo(Me) base 3, then add range duration, etc.
  2. You are house ruling a version of "direct the flow of bodily energy" in which case I would suggest simply taking one of the elemental personality types from the elementalists and imposing all the matching benefits and virtues accordingly, and calling it ReCo base 15.
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Silveroak, it's hard for me to get in to the mindset of your post. What the spell is doing is changing the complexion, the balance of humors, of the target it's not doing either of the things that you suggest. I choose guidelines based on what I think will make a good game, consistency is important and balance more so. I read your post as trying to actually fit the idea of this change into guidelines outside of muto corpus rather than use guidelines as benchmarks for choosing levels, and I don't understand why you'd do that.

As for all of the people who suggested mentem, the way I see it, this spell targets humors it doesn't target minds. Requiring a mentem requisite is akin to requiring perdo and corpus requisites when one uses Pillum of Fire on a human target, or a corpus requisite on a flying carpet.

Here is what I suspect is my final take on using humors to influence personality traits:

Evocation of the Choleric Personality
MuCo 20
R: Eye, D: Sun, T: Ind.
By altering the balance of the target's humors the caster is able to raise all of the Choleric personality traits of the target by 3 points (i.e 0 to +3, or -2 to +1). These personality traits include,

Self Reliant,
Optimistic,
Courageous,
Decisive,
Determined,
Domineering,
Proud,
Hot-Tempered,
Angry,
Prejudiced, and
Cruel

However, as a byproduct of the target's unbalanced humors, they suffer from extreme thirst and and jaundice, if this spell is maintained on a target for more then a day the target will suffer from increasing ill including seizing of joints, loss of feeling in their extremities, and nausea. Using this and similar complexional manipulating magic can. over the course of days or weeks counteract the benefits of a medical regime and even impose penalties to ageing rolls based on storyguide judgement.
(Base 5, +1 eye, +2 sun)

and

Evocation of the Specific Choleric Personality
Mu(Re)Co 25
R: Eye, D: Sun, T: Ind.
By altering the balance of the target's humors the caster is able to raise one of the Choleric personality traits of the target by 3 points (i.e 0 to +3, or -2 to +1). The choleric personality traits include,

Self Reliant,
Optimistic,
Courageous,
Decisive,
Determined,
Domineering,
Proud,
Hot-Tempered,
Angry,
Prejudiced, and
Cruel

However, as a byproduct of the target's unbalanced humors, they suffer from extreme thirst and and jaundice, if this spell is maintained on a target for more then a day the target will suffer from increasing ill including seizing of joints, loss of feeling in their extremities, and nausea. Using this and similar complexional manipulating magic can. over the course of days or weeks counteract the benefits of a medical regime and even impose penalties to ageing rolls based on storyguide judgement.
(Base 5, +1 eye, +2 sun, +1 rego requisite)

1 Like
15

If I try and cause dehydration in a person there is a Corpus requisit, it cannot simply be an aquum spell. If you are changing personality by affecting the body there is a mentem requisit. It's that simple, aside from your reduction ad absurdum fallacies.

16

While I can't speak from personal experience, I'd say being cursed with artrithis tends to increase one's Grumpy trait, and being cursed with impotence tends to decrease one's Confident trait :slight_smile:

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17

It may as a secondary effect, but if it is a primary effect of the spell it is mentem. Remember this is middle ages not modern day, and neurobiology is out, the mind/spirit and body are considered separate things. In theory you could add to the choleric character of an aerie spirit or ghost without them having a body to affect.