Mongols in 5th

Hello I was wondering what books covered the Mongols and mongol spirit magic in 5th Ed. I know I've seen a couple of pages here and there but I haven't a clue which books there where in. I need to make a list of books to borrow.

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There's some stuff in The Cradle & The Crescent, aka. tC&tC, chapter 9. Not much though.

The magic they have described in 5th ed canon is nothing like their magic described in the 4th ed book, The Dragon and the Bear.

Looking here we see Sub Rosa #7 has something about Mongols. I don’t have access to the zine at the moment so I can’t see if it’s of use to this question except in letting you know to check there.

[edit to add:] There are also the Nightwalkers in Hedge Traditions which one could use to emulate the version in 4th ed somewhat. Maybe also allow them to take Fetches which are described in one of the other traditions in Hedge Magic or Rival Magic.

As nullsettings already stated, in Sub Rosa there is a chapter about Mythic Mongols.

They are described as an Infernal Tradition using Incantation and Diablerie to bestow powers among them and using Binding to harness the power of Infernal Ghosts (usually Mongol sorceress that passed and became Infernal Ghosts)


Which is a bit disturbing given the historical reality- while Mongols were initially Tengralists they cultivated Buddhism, and later Islam and Christianity within their empire, officially converting to Islam in 1313, and building numerous Buddhist temples in the middle east before that. So while I can understand the instinct to think of the invading horde s being infernal, it also means that AM (or at least sub rosa) has declared Buddhism satanic.
Which is one of the dangers with having a setting that is supposed to be based in the real world.

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Which is probably why the more extensive (compared to the section in Ancient Magic) treatment of the mongols in T&TC offers several different versions of the mongol horde - from mundane warriors, to affiliated with either of the supernatural realms.


If I remember correctly it (Sub Rosa) also have Divine version of Mongols.


"Which is a bit disturbing given the historical reality- while Mongols were initially Tengralists they cultivated Buddhism, and later Islam and Christianity within their empire, officially converting to Islam in 1313"

I intentionally wrote this piece as a standard High Fantasy bad-guys, basically to check out how one can do so in Ars Magica based on RoP:I rules. With some liberties and a dash of Bene Gesserity to taste. I believe the text explicitly says it has no real relation to real Mongols whatsoever, and is intended to serve as an antagonist group in a roleplaying game and that's all.

It certainly does not mean to declare Buddhism satanic. Nor does it mean that Sub Rosa took any side in this - it just published a fan-made take on the Mongols, that's it.


I have just checked what it actually says in the 4e book The Dragon and the Bear and in Sub Rosa #7.

The Dragon and the Bear mostly describes the mongol invasion from a mundane historical perspective. Their magic that is described is from the Magic realm.

At the end there are two proposed variations: Having them as an Infernal horde, or as a Divinely inspired horde. Both suggestions are just a paragraph or two with little details.

Sub Rosa #7 simply (and explicitly) expands on the Infernal variation, fleshing it out and adapting to 5e rules.
It does not declare that the mongols were infernal, but that if you want to run them as infernal here is how you can do it.


Not really. That seems like saying that every follower of an Infernally tainted heresy sect is proof that the main religion (be it Christianity or Islam) is Infernal.

Do not Luciferans believe themselves to be devoutly practicing Christians?

And don't forget the possibility that after being exposed to True Faith believers for several generations after conquest, the Mongol peoples might reject the Infernal.


Luciferians (in game definition) are individuals, not movements. there is a huge difference between the idea that some faithful people may be corrupted and declaring an entire organization corrupted.

Also another point is that someone might have done a little better research before choosing that name in the RoP:I supplement since there is a real world religious sect called Luciferians who would be absolutely livid at the idea that they consider themselves to be Christians.
Which again come to the point of why having a "historical" game which is making declarations about the veracity of religions within a historical context is a Really Bad Idea, no matter how many disclaimers you put on it that "this is only a game and we don't really mean this"

"choosing"? The name almost certainly refers to certain religious movements during the 13th century that were called Luciferian, and branded as heretical, and thus has nothing to do with any modern sects.
Nearly all the groups and organizations mentioned in Ars Magica are based on historical or legendar groups, and are not something the writers just made up.


OK, so I was one of the authors of the book, and became lead author when Niall had to drop out for IRL reasons and Mark (Shirley) and I had to respond to the 2nd playtest feedback. I wrote the Jinn section (leveraging on Erik's amazing Order of Sulieman chapter) and the "rump" Silk road chapter of 19 pages.

So back in the day we were way over word limit (which David had already kindly expanded so fun fact TCatC is actually the biggest 5th edition book by page count at 192 vs the standard 144 ie 48 extra pages!) so stepping in for Niall I made the tough decision to stop developing material for and cut down the Silk Road chapter I was assigned... bit sad, but I think it was the right decision as Arabia, Persia, Mesopotamia were all more likely to be visited and hadn't been covered much whereas TDatB had already covered some of the Mongols albeit 4th edition style.

As other posters have commented on however, TDatB has very limited notes on their magic. This compares to 7 pages on the Mythic Steppe and various notes on options referring to other supplements. David had a guideline that supplements were meant to be independent as much as posisble, so I wasn't going to be able to reproduce the various rules that I felt would make a Mongol Shaman Mythic Companion work and we already had two powerful hedge / rival traditions which were arguably going to get more usage and fitted in better with the rest of Mythic Europe.

I mean I think a Silk Road Saga would be great (and would be my preferred choice, set in the Tarim basin and Kashgar / the Pamir with links to Tibet and Serica), but a Mongol shaman wandering around western Europe had a lot less playability than an OoS sahir or a Zoroastrian priest it was felt. Not unfair I think.

So I didn't have anything to do with the Infernal Mongols in SR #7 but the author of that piece and I corresponded afterwards I recall and I quite liked his take - to me the Magic-aligned Mongol shamans were the default / preferred incarnation but I wanted to present options for Storyguide's to riff on like the OP is asking and had planned on a blog article or Sub Rosa follow-up post however there was more appetite for more central articles and ideas.

And yeah, Satanic Buddhists wasn't a cool concept for me although from memory they were Tengrists which actually fits quite well with Divine (with sort of saint-like figures).

The last page has a summary of some of those original 4th edition derived ideas:


Troupes with access to Hedge Magic Revised Edition may wish to consider using magus-level shamans in their sagas, either as worthy non-Hermetic adversaries or perhaps even as potential recruits to the Order via House Criamon or Ex-Miscellanea.

In either of the historically rooted scenarios detailed earlier, a powerful shaman might best be represented as Gifted Companion or Mythic Companion variants of Nightwalkers, able to travel by phantasticum (spirit-body), similar to the Magyar Taltos. Such Magic-aligned nomad magicians may have access to the Goetic Art of Summoning, the Major Virtue Mythic Herbalism and perhaps some minor powers (Flight, Healing, Premonitions, Skinchanger) commonly attributed to the Folk Witches found in other parts of Mythic Europe (see Hedge Magic Revised Edition, pages 33–54, for details of Folk Witches, and pages 103–119, for examples of Nightwalker traditions capable of spirit traveling).

This is actually a lot closer to the 4th edition versions and I would have included Fetch etc but I don't think Rival magic was announced and/or I wasn't meant to refer to it. This would have been pretty powerful and came across as a bit "min-maxing" being a fusion of several existing traditions.


Also was limited by the earlier presentation in Ancient Magic 16-18, which was canonical. This was one of the issues we came across with the line, avoiding being hemmed in by prior Story Seeds and sections when we came around to actually detailing an area in full ... and likewise trying to leave space for material to come. This was easier with tCatC as everything to the east broke down into conjecture and stories ie was implied to be Faerie until proven otherwise.

I would guess not, but maybe in the future could their be a Mythic Silk Road book?

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Unlikely, as much as I love the concept and have some ideas...

It's pretty far out of range for most Sagas and it's probably not commercially viable (unless maybe Kickstarted) - we were pushing it to get tC&TC and the Africa book (which became two books) into Mythic Europe as "not-Tribunal Books" as it was. I recall Timothy and I started talking about China and India and... but realistically that's almost another game / different world LOL.

I'd love to set a Saga in the Tarim basin, based on an itinerant covenant (Itineris Serica ie the "Journey to the East"as it were LOL) where each magus has an oversized camel adorned with a sanctum howdah that links to a regio so the inside is larger than the out. Effectively they have a Chapter House / Mercere outpost in Kashgar and interactions with Tibet and Serica, perhaps even some of the Faeries from al-Hind. And of course the encroaching Mongols and their spirit-walking shamans... but I stopped developing notes for it when it was clear we were running out of space and would be cutting back material in any case. Plus I had taken over editing, as Niall had to step back and entrusted me to the direction, with Mark (Shirley) picking up some of the heavy lifting in the writing section.

But look, would I be interested ... absolutely!

I've backed this fully funded Kickstarter: which is 5E based to be sure, but I suspect could be drawn upon for further ideas and converted across.

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