Mu/Te base 4: change in size (volume)

Mu/Te base 4 allows the spell to change the volume of the target by up to 8 times.

Does the change scale with x10 per magnitude added?

size +1 for x80 times change in volume
size +2 for x800 times change in volume

No, because size magnitudes affect the target, not the effect of the spell.

This is house rule territory. You could say : if base 4 is for x2 in every direction, maybe having 4 additionnal magnitude for an additional x2 seem okay. Or you may decided that 2 additional magnitude could suffice.

I've seen a couple of posts here that have used the modify with multiples of 10 per magnitude, but I guess it was too good to be true.

I'd to with a multiplier of x8/magnitude on volume, at the most.
Thus Base 4 is x2in each direction, total x8 volume
4+1 would be x4 in each direction, x64 volume, etc.

At the most.

Compare to Creo Terram, for the same volume:

  • dirt is (Creo: base 1 + size 1 = 2) vs (Muto: base 4), ok
  • stone is (Creo: base 3 + size 1 = 4) vs (Muto: base 4 + 1 = 5), ok
  • metal is (Creo: base 5 + size 1 = 10) vs (Muto: base 4 + 2 = 10), same
  • gemstone is (Creo: base 25 + size 1 = 30) vs (Muto: base 4 + 2 = 10), oops

Your idea applies the same volume increase as Creo would, but is slightly harder to implement. As long as you don't use it for gemstones and rare metals, it seems ok to me.

The Muto guidelines states that changing glass/stone is +1 magnitude, and metal/gemstone is +2 magnitudes.
What I was wondering about was not the difficulty of changing different materials, and the volume of material effected is as the same as for all Terram, 10 cubic paces for dirt, 1 cubic pace for stone, 1 cubic foot for base metals, 1/10 cubic foot for precious metals and 1 cubic inch for gemstones.

The question, which could have been formulated better, was if the change in size (growth/shrinkage) scales in the same way as size modifiers.

Most spell guidelines scales in some way, so how does the growth/shrinkage guideline scale. Mu/An & Mu/Co also has guidelines for growth/shrinkage, but they are are not specific in any way, they just say change size and leave it to you to find out how much. Preternatural growth and shrinking gives some hints, but not when it comes to scaling of the growth/shrinkage factor.
The Mu/Te base 4 guideline allows for a growth of up to 8 times the original volume, would an added magnitude multiply the amount of growth by 10, or maybe 8, or just add 8.

Base 4 = 8x increase in volume
Base 4 + 1 = 80x increase in volume? Base 4 + 2 = 800x increase in volume? Base 4 + 2 = 8000x increase in volume?
Base 4 + 1 = 64x increase in volume? Base 4 + 2 = 512x increase in volume? Base 4 + 2 = 4096x increase in volume?
Base 4 + 1 = 16x increase in volume? Base 4 + 2 = 24x increase in volume? Base 4 + 2 = 32x increase in volume?

Which method of scaling the growth/shrinkage factor is best both considering logic and game balance?

Personally, I always go with it (for any growing/shrinking type spell).

Base 4 > +1 size or -2 size.
Add 1 magnitude, reduce by an additional -1 size [size=85](technically, it's not reduced by -1 (it's reduced by 1 or grown by -1) but for game purpose, we use it like that ^^)[/size]; additionnal magnitude add additional shrinking
Add 2 magnitude, grow by an additional +1 size.

Thus examples:
Base 4 +5 magnitudes: shrink an animal by -6 size.
Base 4 +6 magnitude, grow an animal (size up to +1) by +4 size

Same scaling but base is 3 IIRC.

TERRAM (or any other)
Same scaling. Add also additional material and size target parameters.

Aquam, Auram, Herbam and Terram does not does not operate in size increments for their objects, Aquam and Terram uses volume, Auram talks about weather phenomenon affecting an area and Herbam about plants with volume references.

ArM5 page 192 says that "an increase or decrease of three points of Size is approximately equivalent to a factor of ten change in size", or a bit over 3x per point of size.
Compared to the 10x factor used when calculating size you would need to increase something by 9 sizes to get the same increase as 2 magnitudes for size in a spell. or 16 magnitudes above base by your reasoning. I know affecting a mass of dead material like sand is not the same as making your cat familiar grow into a monster the size of a tiger (5 increments of Size) but when the base 4 guideline allows for 8x growth (or between 2 and 3 size increments) it should scale a bit faster than changing size with animal or corpus effects.

The Mu/Te base 4 guideline allows something to grow to eight times it's previous volume, so by your way of reasoning it would be something like this if we use the same increments as the base guideline does.
Base 4 = grow or shrink 8x
Base 4+1 = shrink 64x
Base 4+2 = grow 64x or shrink 512x
Base 4+3 = shrink 64x

Oh no, your question was clear. I am still scratching my head on how to expose my thoughts on it, which is why it was missing a conclusion. (par for the course :laughing: )

CrTe10 (base3 touch+1 diam+1 size+1) creates a stone 10 times the basic Individual. Each extra magnitude would create a stone 10 times as big.
MuTe15 (base4 touch+1 diam+1 stone+1) enlarges an Individual stone to 8 times its size. Each extra magnitude would enlarge it by a factor 8.

Creo starts with a free magnitude and for every extra magnitude it gets even better than Muto. As it stands, your idea is not abusive and fits well with the effects of Creo.

[quote="Creo starts with a free magnitude and for every extra magnitude it gets even better than Muto. As it stands, your idea is not abusive and fits well with the effects of Creo.[/quote]
And it gets further restricted by the guidelines.
ArM pg 154, Muto guidelines The amount of material you can change is limited by the guidelines for each end., meaning the volume of the object after being affected by the spell must also be accounted for by the spells size modifier if larger than the base individual.

For smaller stuff this won't be much of a problem, but for spells that try to grow miniature houses into castles the magnitudes will pile up into the realm of rituals pretty quick.

Silly me!

An eightfold increase in volume is the same as doubling in all three dimensions. 2^3=8
So by doubling something in height, width and length (all three dimensions) it would increase 8 times in volume.

Suddenly the 8x factor makes much more sense.

1 Like