Are you asking this because you think the chart for Concentration disagrees? Ah, looking at the original post I can see this confusion does appear on the thread:
Let me clear up the error here. The chart never lists anything for Concentration for casting two spells at once. If you're looking at that "casting another spell" line, then you need to pay attention to the part of the chart you're on: "continuing situation." That section of the chart is "for a continuing situation, such as injury or maintaining another spell." Earlier it also says, "there are some things it is possible to do while maintaining a spell, but impossible to do while casting." Thus, explicitly, just because you can do something while maintaining a spell (cast another spell), that does not imply you can do so while casting a spell.
I would say that if there was meant to be a Concentration roll for multi-casting, then the rules for multi-casting would explicitly mention it.
As Callen says, the "Casting Another Spell" entry on the Concentration Table is the required roll for maintaining Concentration duration on spell A while casting spell B. There is no implication that spell A and B are cast at the same time, or even in the same round. Also, if you happen to fail this roll, it just means that you stop concentrating on spell A, it has no consequence for the pending casting of spell B.
I think it is more fun and workable without a Concentration roll for multi-casting. With a Concentration roll multi-cast becomes useless.
The exception is, if the spell that you were casting with multi-cast had a Concentration duration. In that case, sure, you would need to make Concentration rolls to maintain the previously cast versions of the spell each time you tried to cast a copy. This just means that it is a bad idea to multi-cast master a Concentration duration spell. Fortunately, Demon's Eternal Oblivion has a Momentary duration.
Gah! Then i simply have to nominate it as one of the worst worded parts of the rules. Counterintuitive to say the least.
Almost as bad as Target and target.
Its how i read it originally, and frankly i prefer it that way.
Almost yes. And what ease factor do you roll against if you multicast lets say 5 instances of a spell?
And is one of the most munchkin and rules-abiding ways to use multicast.
If they are auto-magically targeted spells, then there is no roll, other than the normal casting roll (5 times). Is this a problem?
Everyone's definition of "munchkin" is different.
Personally, I love the way that a magus with multicast DEO (and its other realm equivalent spells) can quickly slaughter most supernatural foes. For me, it means that wandering around slaughtering things quickly becomes an incidental part of the game, and lets the saga concentrate on Tribunal politics, the interactions of the characters, and being lab nerds. Which, to me, is what ArM is all about.
For me, allowing (and encouraging) the "munchkin" use of things like of DEO makes the saga itself more interesting. Because monster hunts and dungeon crawls become very boring, the troupe is forced to tell different, more interesting stories.
I've never thought about this before, and IDHMBWM.
I think the Concentration is for maintaining a D:Conc spell while casting another. The MuVi guidelines mention this. So I don't quite get David Chart's mention of it taking 2 rounds. But it does till make sense, since you are holding the MuVi while casting the spell it needs to affect, and this obviosuly counts as maintaining concentration on a spell.
Multi-Casting is casting several identical copies - IMHO is does not need Conc. just for this.
Fast-Cast is a response to something, not just a way of casting twice in a round. A magus in combat dispatches Bandit 1 with a PoF, Bandit 2 is engaged in combat with a grog. But suddenly Grog 3 pops out of hisind and loosens an arrow at the magus. He then Fast-Casts a ReHe to deflect the arrow. But not if the magus is casting invisible and sneaking after the bandits into a dark cave, to kill the hostages. So time is of the essesce. He wants to cast Eyes of the Cat, me shouldn't just try to Fast-Cast Gift of the Bears Fortitude as well, just to activate all hisbooster-spells before he needs to take action.
As I pointed out above though, the MuVi guidelines already specify their own Concentration roll for casting them alongside their target spell, and the TN is much lower than casting a spell while maintaining another,
What it also means is that an barely out of apprenticeship can kill off a Might 50 opponent, which is really really sad.
And of course, reasonably powerful magi can shred a might 100 foe without much trouble. And do it ridiculously fast.
Which means Might creatures are just silly.
And because YOUR view is that "big bad foes" is an incidental part, that doesnt mean others thinks the same. If you prefer focusing on ONE part of the game world, fine, but thats no reason for another part to work so poorly that magi rules the day against ANY sort of opponent.
But making "monster hunts and dungeon crawls" autowins for the players is what makes them boring.
Don't forget that to be able to cast 5 DEO's or similar you need a mastery score of 4, meaning 50 xp (that is about 10 seasons) spent on mastering a single spell, which only works against creatures belonging to one of the four realms. Assuming of course you haven't got the Flawless Magic Major Virtue making it easier to reach a mastery score of 4.
But this raises an interesting point. Suppose you have a mastery score of 9 in a specific spell, let's say DEO. Is it reasonable that you are able to cast 10 DEOS's in a single round, whether another Magus without the mastery of this spell would only be able to cast one DEO in the same round ? I think not. There should be some kind of limit.
This is why, to me, DEO is a problem as-is. Besides making the PeVi guidelines internally inconsistent, it makes the whole Might scale in the books screwy.
Or specialize in multiple casting and use a score of 3. Yes, by RAW Spell Mastery gets specialties, too. Now it's an investment of 30 experience. That's just over half a minor virtue if you want to start with it. Even if you don't, it nearly cuts those seasons in half.
I'm OK with 10 DEO's if you're willing to invest that much in an ability that applies to only one spell which isn't useful against the majority of those you deal with. On a real-world scale, there are those of us who can to math calculations at many times the speed of others who are capable of doing them perfectly well, and I'm not even one of those blazingly fast people who beat computers. However, if you want to scale it back, you could use a pyramid system: rank 1 -> +1 spell, 3 -> +2 spells, 6 -> +3 spells, 10 -> +4 spells. Or maybe you'd just want to use half the Spell Mastery rank, rounded up?
Who said anything about specifically needing 5? Thats true if using the RAW version AND wanting a single round kill, and being able to kill off a powerful being in one round with ease, well thats exactly why i dont like it at all.
Aside from that, i will rather use a DEO that cause 5 damage to maximize penetration, and for that i might want as high as mastery 4, but with a more powerful magi, a DEO 15-20 is quite fine, even 25 isnt out of the question for a specialist, and then a score of 1-2 is plenty enough. And THAT is just 5-15XP... Or zero if you have Flawless...
Yeah, totally. But i really like my own "fix" to it(where the spell must penetrate and then might subtracts from DEO damage, and then damage is taken from pool first then from might itself, essentially raising the needed casting total many MANY times, YAY!).
Ick... Never used that, but i expect you are probably correct. Oh dear, even WORSE!!!
Mmm, half spell mastery score... That might be an idea.
Even with a multi-cast DEO you still need to get a Penetration of 50 (on the first DEO). Which is not easy for a magus barely out of apprenticeship. That's the tricky part. Sure it is possible if your character is optimized to do that, or you are playing in saga with masses and masses of vis available. But if your character is optimised in this way, then he is likely totally useless at some other stuff.
Even if you get rid of multi-cast, four or five magi, each with DEO can Might strip a big beastie quickly, if just one of them can generate the Penetration to get started.
It is dealing to creatures in the Might 10-30 sort of range where DEO is really useful. And pretty much every magus (who has bothered to learn DEO as a formulaic) should have a decent shot at Might 10-15 creatures.
It's not so hard if you build an item to do it. Take advantage of effect expiry if you have the vis. Go with charges if you don't have the vis. Thats what we did. We knew we couldn't face our opponent but had some spare vis. For the next 7 years anything we couldn't handle easily without it we'd drop by 10 Might. If we still couldn't handle it, another 10. Items give you sooo much penetration so easily.
To make a lesser enchanted item with DEO 5, and 50 Penetration, and (say) 24 uses per day. Is an effect of 5 + 25 + 5 = 35. Which requires a Lab Total of 70.
Which is possibly doable, for the right magi, but it is hardly trivial for magi freshly out of apprenticeship. Most magi a number of years out from apprenticeship will struggle to do this.
As i have already shown in another thread earlier, no that isnt all so terribly hard. The hard part is to get an AC to the target, which OTOH is something im yet to meet a player who is incapable of figuring out a way to do.
Getting a *6 multiplier to Penetration is just a matter of working on it. *4 is just about always possible.
Or, you can simply burn through a crapload of Vis. Most players dont walk around with enough for that, but SOME DO.
If a character is optimized for killing "demons", that will include a relevant Focus, and THEN neither gaining troublesome modifiers to penetration or using up hoards of Vis is no longer needed at all.
I´ve seen more than one player intentionally design "demon hunter" style magi, and even making them "realistic" and totally in context. Most of them could tear up a Might 50 foe right out of apprenticeship without using any "tricks" at all.
Based on the comparison in an earlier thread, we´re usually rather on the low side. But its amazing how much some players can hoard anyway.
Single round kill.
And as already said, i went and made Might creatures severely nastier instead. Under my rules, NO SANE player will go out and try to argue with a Might 100 foe, and many old and powerful magi cant even handle a Might 50 foe(hurt it, oh yes, but not enough fast enough).
I think my choice for the future will be restricting multicast against a single target, ie. only one iteration of the spell is effective against one target.
Might 10 creatures runs and hides from magi. Or apprentice magi. A few Vis, confidence etc...
Instakill against such levels.
With a 7 year expiry, make that Lab Total 42.
And then you make a few more of those and THEN you make a couple more with DEO 15 and 30 Penetration.
Single round kill.
Many serious specialists will easily handle 42.
OR, you simply make charged items. So lets have the item stick to level 35, meaning we get a DEO 10 instead, with a 7 year expiry we get 7 charges.
As i would certainly make sure i had the spell as formulaic before making any items, that would mean another +4 bonus(or possibly even +6 or +7 for a serious "demon hunter" character(they will usually start with a DEO at 5 and one at the highest possible they can get, both to be able to do lots of damage by flushing Vis and confidence to penetrate a hard target but also to get the bonus to Lab totals like above). And then there´s a few points of S&M bonuses as well.
My interpretation of all of this hinges on the concentration rules on p82, rather than any specifics of fastcasting or multicasting.
Third column, first paragraph basically says that the 'Continuing Situations' list on the concentration table refers to things you can only do while maintaining concentration on an existing, ongoing effect (and goes on to say the difficulties are pre-adjusted). My personal interpretation is this means these are only applicable for scenarios where you are maintaining concentration on an existing spell or effect of 'Concentration' duration that has been cast prior to your current spellcasting attempt.
Therefore the 'Casting another spell' listing isn't for casting while casting, but for casting while maintaining.
Note that this also means that injury applies standard injury modifiers to any concentration rolls made while injured, not the 3x variant for maintaining an existing effect. Therefore, casting a spell while suffering a medium wound while otherwise doing nothing is effective EF 3 (0 for still, -3 for wound penalty), not EF 9. In my game, maintaining concentration is a more difficult sustained activity than casting a new spell is - which to me makes sense. I see it as being similar to the comparative difficulty of kicking a soccer ball vs. dribbling a soccer ball.
Casting while casting is a unique thing to multi-casting only. I read that as being a master of the spell such that you weave the magic to produce multiple copies of the effect with one 'casting' of the spell - the multiple casting rolls dictating how effective you are at doing this. Therefore I'd class the whole action as a single 'spellcasting action' - and have it affected globally by any concentration rolls required while casting ('Situation' items on the concentration table). If someone punches you in the face while you're attempting your multicast, one concentration roll is required to govern the whole thing. Fail it and you lose the lot.
Fast-Casting is a different kettle of fish. A fast-cast spell is cast and resolved. Unless the spell is of concentration duration, the spell is finished and over with by the time you get to either the next fast-cast or your actual spell action. Besides, handling these things as discrete actions is easier on the brain.
That's how I interpret the RAW. I do not believe I'm making any house-rules here - this is how I interpret it as written. It's also what I think is more fun - since it means a magus doesn't have to be a concentration god to get even basic usage out of their various mastery abilities.
Ok, so if u multicast crystal dart why would u need concentration if each is a momentary spell? I would lean more to a progressive finess penalty like kickback from a fire arm.
Oh as for as multiple casts, what about wizard's fork? I always thought multi cast made this muto vim spell irrelevant.
By the rules, you don't unless someone's hitting you while you're casting them, you're running while casting them, etc.
There are fewer Wizard's Forks than there are Spell Masteries. Also, you can't master someone else's spell for them. There are a number of reasons it's still handy.
