I agree with your reading. And "maintaining another" is for juggling two (or more) conc. duration spells, which counts as a distraction. Barring distractions, maintaining a spell can be done automatically (for 15 x concentration minutes). Juggling two maintained spells must be rolled for every two minutes, plus the initial concentration roll to cast spell #2.
I believe multicasting requires no more concentration than casting the spell once. It's your specialty trick, after all. Even maintaining the multicast spell on four different grogs can conceivably be counted as maintaining one spell if you have mastery 3 multicasting, though it would be a generous interpretation.
I've always felt that using multicast to create a machinegun effect for any spell is munchkin. If you want a mega combat effect I'd rather see a single really big and hard to learn spell.
I've wondered before if the game would lose anything if I houseruled multicasting out of existance.
Houseruling it out completely might be a bit harsh, but certainly not unacceptable to most.
Separate rolls for each casting, with an increasing penalty for each, and unable to cast all "multies" at the same target, or something thereabouts...
The multicast low-level spell might be quite beneficial when going up against someone with any MR, while the "big" spell will likely have poor penetration unless you prepared well in advance,
That said, it would be nice to see Multicasting being used as a "tool", by which I mean that it is useful in specific specialized circumstances, so giving it drawbacks isn't necessarily a bad thing if it helps with that,
So perhaps one of:
Max targets = Finesse score
Max spells on one target = finesse score
or even requiring Forceless casting (the extra energy normally used for penetration is instead going into the next casting)
Reduced Penetration (divide total Pen by # of spells cast)
Or something like that would help make Multicasting slightly more specialized?
Doing something about the penetration would go a long way towards eliminating the munchkin factor. I think I'd have a much easier time living with the other implications of multicast if we found a way to get rid of the death by a thousand pinpricks for magical beings.
But is it a problem for The Crystal Dart, The Wound that Weeps, or only DEO? If it is only DEO, then the idea of reducing the Might pool to 0 before reducing the Might resistance might fix it.
And are all level of multicast mastery a problem, or is it only when 5xp = double damage? Then revert the erratum to multicasting.
Multicasting works fine the way it is. It is already weakened from 4th edition in that the number of copies you can produce is much more limited. No need to toss Concentration rolls and divided penetration and further difficulties on top of that.
The problem is never the power level of the characters. Only the storyguides inability to cope and present stories to interest said characters. Me, I have the opposite problem. I do not run good stories for weak or low powered characters.
Suggestion: when using DOE (or similar) no raw vis will be left behind. This seems to me to be a natural result of destroying the might... This tends to result in these spells becomming more of a defensive spell than an offensive one.
I think that the Faerie book spells that out explicitly for Faeries, so it seems quite logical that it should also apply to beings from the other realms,
I disagree. The way the penetration rule work, a storyguide can present an opponent with enough MR for the magi to "scratch" but not take down with one spell; that's, at least, the idea. This leads to more interesting, multi-round combats. Multicasting works against in that, in that the "scratch" now becomes multiple-scratches, which can seriously speed up that "dramatic" combat. It's just not a good option to have in the books. Power-hungry magi should satiate their need for punch in ways that are more interesting (like getting sympathetic connections) and don't ruin the way the magic system works.
That's my feeling too. High power level and munchkin are not the same. Munchkining is about finding little tricks in the system that dramatically boost power. Multicast seems to do that. Another classic example is finding combinations of virtues which work much better than other sets that cost the same points. I prefer a game that doesn't reward rules abuse like this. I get no fun out of working on "builds" and the like.
When I want a high power game, I'll just run more experienced magi. It's not hard to get frighteningly high power in Ars Magica with enough seasons of experience.
I understand your points of view. However, that has simply not been my actual experience at all. I even encourage some degree of min-maxing, and I still think the characters are weak. Multicasting Might Stripping spells works just fine by me. You would have to multicats 10 level 5 DeO's to take down a might 50 demon. That requires a Mastery score of 9, which is very-very difficult to obtain. I am working with 20-year magi, so I pretty much expect them to be able to take down high might score enemies. I recently tossed a Might 50 giant at them, which required every resource at hand to take down (even with a multi-cast high level might stripping spell). The genie which they couldn't defeat without using a magic bottle, Might 65. The Hag, a high might score I shall not reveal incase any of my players are reading this. The local dragon, well over 70. The principle villan I have been using, Metron of Flambeau who has been transformed into a Magic Being, his might is only 20 and the characters have not been able to so much as bruise him in two years of antagonism.
So power level and munchkinism has never been a problem for me. I manage to create exciting and enduring stories, and in many cases I wind up having to tune down the power level of my villans so that the players can cope with them. The only problem I actually face is players being jealous of each other, which is a new experience I am learning how do deal with.
If anyone doubbts me, I offer this challenge. Create a powerful munchkinized character (within the limits of current RAW), and join my game (here online in these very forums). I defy you to create a character so overpowered and munchkinized that I cannot create interesting stories for you. I predict the opposite will happen.
To be fair, said Giant had an effective Might Score of 100 when it came to resistance Marko! And it got dealt with! Had it been Might 50, it would have been much easier to drop...
But yes, I'm actually with Marko on this one. Because at the end of the day, if you lack the Penetration to bust through something, being able to cast 10 Incantation of Lightnings will do you no good.
Well, the other giant's did drop quickly. Just the one with the magic ring was hard. You blew what? 30 pawns of vis to finally blast through?
Victories that require sacrifice lead to other interesting tales about how to cope with the loss or recover spent resources.
And that magic ring! Best idea I ever had! Not only did it amplify the resistance and the soak of the enemy, it is now in your hands (which I expected to happen, BTW), and has such a rich potential for future stories and life changing drama.
Yes, but a specialist using 5 level 10 DEOs is far from impossible. Its not even hard if lets say you combine Flawless magic+Life Boost with Affinity and Puissant in the 2 Arts.
Also dont forget that with a score 4 in the mastery you can easily add Penetration as a mastery ability as well, raising your effective penetration by 4.
(lets say art scores at 16+2(*2), Sta+3, Mastery +4 (and an extra +4 to Penetration), dieroll +5(or boosted with confidence) +15 from Lifeboost, and even without magical aura helping, we already got a value of 67, easily allowing the above 5 level 10 DEOs, and if the Penetration ability is 4 or more, you can reduce the use of Lifeboost by 2 levels and still break through)
The above is not hard to attain. And it doesnt even require any fancy stuff(like getting an AC to the demon and start exploiting the penetration system seriously) and its even potentially possible for a novice magi.
And truly, should it really be possible to ONEHIT-KILL a big badass demon? NO WAY!!!
Should a NOVICE magi be able to do it? OUCH!!! Something´s just not right with that picture.
A might 10 demon sure, a magi is almost certainly beyond its abilities in an open fight, but a level 50 demon should be something to cause the characters endless nightmares and outright paranoia to try and stay FAR FAR away from it until they have some SERIOUS BFGs aimed at this specific demon themselves.
Under my own rules, to take down this might 50 demon, characters would need to hit it with 20 level 55 DEOs instead, everyone of those with penetration 51+, to kill off its might completely and all at once before the demon gets to act so as to not give it time to heal its might back. Now THAT is a serious challenge for most characters.
But isn't the point of a specialist to be the best at what they do? If someone focuses in PeVi and naturally spends a fair amount of time working on their Might Destruction, how is this any different than any other combat specialist? Also, if you're using Life Boost, you'll get off one good spell, but then things are going to start heading down hill, unless you dealt a fatal/crippling blow. Perhaps I'm biased, as my character in Marko's Saga is just that, a PeVi Specialist.
There are many many different ways to get around the Might Destruction 'problem'. Now Marko, don't you go getting any fancy ideas here! But you could easily give such a demon a Greater Immunity to Might Destruction. Also, as I've encountered in Marko's Saga, Might Destruction doesn't equal death, I learned the hard way that it's up to the SG... Besides, if you've found a Might 50 Demon and are actively engaged in a fight, then it has lost one of its biggest advantages. Why fight at all when you can use classic Infernal misdirection? Trickery, hordes of Minions... big stompy virgin sacrificing Ceremonies for obscene totals... I mean, come on! Why fight fair when you can fight smart?
Sounds like I wouldn't like your rules, though I admit I'm biased. I'll admit that Might Destruction is a controversial topic, but to me it is no less 'OP' than any number of different spells/guidelines. I personally think that Might Destruction should come out of Temporary Might, then the Actual Score. Also, Might Destruction, unless lethal should heal just like any other wound.
I'm sorry for hijacking the thread and getting off the original topic!
The point of a specialist is that his specialty is his strongest field, which is not quite the same thing (it is entirely possible to be a specialist but only mediocre at your field if you are atrocious at everything else!).
At the height of his career he might be the best at what he does, but I would imagine that there is only one spot open for "the best at Vim magic", etc
To some extent, even being tyhe "strongest in your field" shouldn't always mean that you can "overcome any odds" at will - that doesn't exactly make for good storytelling either, as the best stories encourage the players to stretch their limits,
It does seem like that solution might get a little repetitive if all of your major "villains" need it just to stand a fighting chance,
Would I be correct in thinking that Marko has boosted some of the might scores? Some of the numbers he's throwing about above seem a little higher than the "book" values I have seen (other than for truly exceptional characters anyway).
Not a problem as it's his saga, but consider that it makes his opinion an "in my saga" version because he is effectively house-ruling something relating to the discussion,
Very true, and unlike some of the other issues I think it is a big deal because quite often serious baddies have might,
Nevertheless, I think the point wasn't that might destruction is necessarily bad (it may or may not be) but that multi-casting multiplies up the perceived problem, and really encourages players to spam low-level-high-pen spells instead of looking for ACs or Demons true names, etc (which most GMs would consider more fulfilling story-wise),
Also consider that the might-user (be it a demon, faerie or angel) does not have a similar capacity in return, as they frequently don't have any multi-cast ability, and the magi ofetn can't be hit by might-destruction. Also consider that with fixed penetration (at might - 5*cost) these beings are often reduced to using pretty poor spells against magi because of their PM, meaning that the monsters become less of a threat in return,
First, Might 50 is huge. It is the Infernal Might of the most powerful Princes of hell. Might "well over 70" is almost unheared of; the nine Electors of Hell each have Infernal Might 75, and that's it - no other demon, save the Devil itself, has that much power. So this "well over 70" Might dragon - he's up there with the Devil and St. Michael as one of the strongest supernatural beings in Mythic Europe.
IMHO, these kind of characters need to be extremely formidable. If your saga has reached the stage where characters are dealing with Might 50 opponents (regularly, in combat), then these need to be something like the Faerie gods of old, great demonic princes commanding demonic hosts, or the anthropomorphic spirit of Lust. Those kind of things. So they aren't giants to be "tossed around".
Regardless, the question here isn't whether Might 50 is an appropriate Might score for your character's opponents, but rather whether multicasting works for or against your fun. If your characters can't penetrate the Might, it's irrelevant. If they can penetrate it by a lot, it's irrelevant again - just use a single-kill (ergo high level) spell. If they can just barely penetrate, multicasting means that they may end the fight at, say, one third the time. Is that conductive to the fun? I think not. I think it weakens the need to make those interesting choices about whether to sacrifice that pile of raw vis, to lean the True Name of the opponent or make a vodoo doll [sympathetic connection] of him, that it makes dramatic combats less dramatic, and that it multiplies the power of the more combat-appropriate magi even further, leaving the other magi too far behind - a great cause of that player envy, and dissatisfaction with the game. In short, I don't like it.
But even I'll grant that in ArM5, it isn't ALL that bad. The number of copies is limited, and increasing it is expensive. So it's significant, and I don't think it's a good factor, but it isn't a total game-killer in most cases.
And it got dealt with! Had it been Might 50, it would have been much easier to drop...