Multiple Targets, ACs, and Penetrations.

Warning! Warning! Possible Target target debate!!!

Does having an Arcane Connection to the Target be it Circle, Group, Room, or Structure allow you to boost the penetration to all the individuals within the Target affected by the spell. Or do you need to have an AC specific to each individual target.

To further complicate things I guess an AC to something in a Target is an AC to the Target itself for range purposes. At least for some spells.

For instance canonically a Range:Arcane Connection Target:Room InIm spell can be cast with either an AC to the room itself or to one of its occupants. (ArM pg 145)

The rules say compare your penetration to each individual affected separately (ArM pg 82), but they also say you can only use one AC to modify your penetration total. (ArM pg 84)

So do you have just one penetration total that an AC to the Target will modify equally for all affected or do you have several totals that can make use of different ACs for different "targets".

Circle at AC Range would be hard - how do you trace it at the time of casting? :mrgreen:

That being said... mechanically, Penetration is just how well you cast the spell. In this case an Arcane Connection increases your die roll. When the Target is the Room, well you need an AC to the Room to improve your Penetration.

There may be ways to build a case for needing AC to affected entities, but I haven't tried.

You can use an AC to boost penetration for any range spell.

If the Target include multiple target, and you have only AC to some targets, only for those will your multiplier be taken in account.

Example: you have a fixed AC to "badmagus of Flambeau" : name, a charm with 6 category and 6 concepts.

You cast "big fire which burn". CrIg 100 , boundary target, year duration, AC, doing +45 damage to any one).

Your Casting - level is 0, your penetration skill is 10.

For Badmagus, your penetration is 10 x (1+ [4 (indefinite) +1 (name) +7 (charms, 2 from symbolic representation +5 from exceeding categories)] = 130.

For any one in the boundary it's 10.

You may burn his covenant, his books, his grogs... but not his familiar or his sodales.

And you will be marched soon.

No. Such a penetration boost would allow greater penetration against the Target itself, not against individuals within the Target.


I was more thinking of how hard it'd be to trace it at range. :wink:


Because you think so, or because you can refer to some RAW?

Why should you get a modifier against targets that you dont have an AC for? Having an AC and modifiers for penetration against a house, why should that affect penetration against persons inside the house?

Why not? Do you have any RAW argument or is it just wind?

Personally I'm inclined to go with the multiple different Penetration Totals for game play reasons. It's entirely to easy to secure AC's to Rooms, Circles, and Boundaries when you think about it. Imagine casting touch/room spell that incapacitates everyone inside. Walk up to an exterior wall flake off a bit of masonry to use as an AC and cast away. Heck for target circle spells a Magus could use the chalk he drew the circle with as an AC to the circle. Who cares if wards need to penetrate.

The weird thing is that RAW might just support the blanket penetration option. First because the rules seem to say that you only generate one Penetration Total per casting and it is applied equally to all Targets. But also because when dealing with area and group targets an AC for one seems to be an AC to all.

Perhaps, but it is not so straight-foward to secure ACs to the right Room or Boundary. There is something quite appealing about being able to collect AC's to a location and then trying to lure your target into the trap you have thus created. There does seem to be some story fun there.

Also, you are paying a bit of a casting penalty, as a Room target spell will be two Magnitudes greater than the equivalent Individual Target effect. So the Room effect is a harder spell to cast, but it might be more effective if you can cast it, and can persuade your 'target' to stand in the right place.

Well, if that is the case, it makes the warding problem (wards need to penetrate) moot. And the collection of ACs as well. Why research the name of the faerie prince or search the name of the demon if some chalk will do the trick?

In other words, I do not like that at all. For me "tricking someone" has always been casting a circle ring ward and a watching ward to activate it at the right moment, not collecting small bags of masonry. I fail to see the mythicness of having a closet that looks like a construction worker's product catalog.


Tugdual (if it's your question), because it's RAW. see the example about the dragon hunt.

I think we can all agree that from a game playing viewpoint, it would be ridiculous for an AC to a room to affect penetration against everyone in the room - why should a bit of stone from the wall help a spell penetrate against the magus inside ? Or for that matter, why should an AC to the grog standing next to the magus help in penetrating the magus' resistance when you affect them both with a Group spell ?

The rules themselves are a bit unclear, since they do not directly address the issue. However, if you look very carefully at the text on Penetration, p.84, it mentions the "target", not the "Target". Thus, for a Room spell meant to affect the occupants of the room, the target, or rather targets, are the occupants, not the room, and the penetration needs to be calculated on them, not on the room - an AC to the room wouldn't help. And if the spell affects the room and the occupants, they are still separate targets of the same spell. Further, the rules do say (p.85, Functioning of Magic Resistance) that if a spell affect a group or other large target, each person resists separately ("If she [the maga] is part of a Group or large Target, the spell fails to work on her but may affect other people within its target").

So I would say that the RAW do say that Penetration vs Magic Resistance is checked for each target of the spell separately, and of course the Arcane Connections only apply to the target that it is an Arcane Connection to.

Ah yes, that was what i was looking for.

ArM p84? The spell is a PeAn, therefore the Target is the target. OTOH, AC to the Target does not work for Creo spells.

That's a good point.

That too. And it's the same thing on p82.

That applies to MR, not AC.

Yeah, there's enough non-working bits. I'm convinced.

<laughter becomes maniacal, then sets his own hair on fire and runs with great fear>

Law of contagion. That's why wizards tend to be hermits :slight_smile: More seriously, it's really the same reason why you only need touch the grog to affect the magus with a R:Touch, T:Group spell.