Mutable Device (new Minor Hermetic Virtue)

Good point Tugdual. p99 also mentions "Limiting the effect in this way ...", which seems to lean towards the interpretation that the effect is still there after expired.

Anyway, me, I'll burn that bridge when the PCs come to it. 8)

A related thought: Even if you say the effect is still there but useless (which seems to be the consensus we're moving toward), this can still be a good approach with familiar bonds because you have no space limitation. It will cost you more vis in the long run, but it will allow you to get an affect earlier in your magus's lifetime.


We have Verditii in our sagas, there are constantly burning bridges to be crosses!

IMHO the effects with expiry still take up space, but are useless once expired. However, there should be a Verditius Mystery allowing one to re-use this space, but only for re-anchanting the old effect, complete with the exipry and all (but you'd be using a lab text). Any thoughts about this?

Don't you mean Flambeau? I thought burning bridges (well, burning *) was usually an indicator of Flambeau magi :wink:

An enchantment that expires is gone. Its simply far better for the game. And i will also say that its logical.

The effect is gones, yes, but does the (cooked) Vis still occupy the object?
I'd say yes, and then tell my players to play with the Verditius mysteries.

Ok, in that case, why isnt the vis still there after you have cast a ritual, or used vis to boost regular casting?
You should also be able to get vis back from charged items that has been used up.
And a Verditius will be able to recycle the vis from "dead" enchantments...

No, just nooooo! Way too much logical problems and contradictions inherent.

But your opinion is not RAW, which is what we are trying to establish here.

Surely the enchantment is still there - it just cannot be used (as it has no charge). Consider that the item has been imprinted with the magic, but even though it has run out of power, the imprint remains,

Presumably the appropriate Verditius mysteries will still allow removal of the enchantment, and possibly recovery of the Vis, just like with any other enchantment,

Yes, but there IS NO clear RAW in this case. And whats been discussed before my post is no less opinion than mine.

So accordingly, you will allow Vis to be recovered from charged items that have had its charges used up? Not allowing it would be illogical becase "the imprint remains".

And obviously, if you can recover Vis that has been used up, you must also be able to recover Vis used to boost spells or rituals... "the imprint remains"

And then of course, by transferring Vis between different physical materials, you can multiply the amount you have! Becase "the imprint remains"...
Thank you very much for the biggest breakthrough ever, almost free Vis.

You need to look up the rules on charged items. You don't understand them properly.

It was never stated that the vis was "used up." His comment was actually roughly opposite, that the vis was not used up, that it remains but in a state that it is not accessible as it once was - just like an enchantment you don't know how to work. Thus your conclusion is flawed.

You're just taking "imprint" to mean whatever you want to get to your conclusions. This is far from implied by what was said.

Let's go back and look at what he's actually saying. The enchantment is still there (held by the vis). The charge has been used up, as though you used all the charges from a charged item (this uses up no vis). Since the charges are out you can't activate the enchantment, but since the enchantment is still there a Verditius might be able to do something about it.


Actually looks possible with reforging - minor verditius mystery

Bleh. Yes i do(in this case at least, thats certainly not true everywhere) but i mixed it up with longtime standard houserules... I wish there was a facepalm smiley... :wink:

No im not and yes it isnt.

I took the concept and spun it onwards in directions i dont think many players would like. Because that is what i KNOW i can expect from players.

Another variant would be that spells that have expired could still be affected, and the remains of ritual spells could be harvested for vis.

However, the "almost endless vis" argument is a pretty decent one.

I just dont buy that argument. The Vis powers the effect until it expires, then its gone along with the effect.
You make the effect "cheaper" by adding the expiry date, therefore it fails after a time rather than keep going as it would otherwise.
A spell that has failed isnt there any more.

Yup, that was part of where i was taking the base of the idea.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I always thought that investing an enchantment, you "burned" the spaces in the item, so that even if the item had expired, you couldn't invest one above it.
Not that this is something I, as a player, like, just the way I understood things.

So maybe you can reforge the item. It poses no real problem to me: If you use an expiry, you're just using a flawed enchantment: The spell matrix is unable to function past a time, it is too degraded, but the vis is still there.

This is pretty close to my understanding as well.

Could somebody please tell me, what needs to be changed in my new virtue?

Also another question, I read some 4th edition spells and there was something odd. Do you get bonus to spells if you use shape and material bonuses? I tought that that was only for enchanting items?

The 4th edition (and previous editions) spells had a Focus. That was an item that gave a small bonus to casting the spell. That got supressed in ArM5.

Salvete, Sodales!

Well, that's only mostly true. You can get spells which use such focus items to give you such boni. Just have a look at "Potent Magic" (Serf's Parma, but I think it's in TMRE).

Alexios ex Miscellanea

Yes, but they're reprinted in HoH: MC as well...