Muto Terram Size-altering question

Muto Terram base 4 can double an object's dimensions, causing an 8 times increase in mass. Is it possible to add a magnitude or two to the spell to increase this effect of this; so that the object becomes even bigger?
And is it possible to do the same in the opposite direction?
Any comments would be nice.
I'm milling things over before completing an Enchanted Device of mine:

Stone Chest of a 1001 Objects

Enchanted Device = 6 pawns worth spent so far; 2 powers instilled; total of 3 seasons of lab work

A stone chest of modest size and design, but with powers that far exceeds its appearance. The chest can hold 10 times what its outside volume would suggest, and all objects made of Terram-based material do not encumber the carrier when inside the containers magical grasp. Despite its simple exterior design, the chest has a marvelous positive pattern on of intertwined geometric shapes covering its entire inside.

Backpack of the Benevolent Burden
Perdo Terram 25
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Group
Makes items consistent of earth, sand, glass, stone or metal within the targeted container weightless. This version of the spell is designed for heavy duty sacks and backpacks.
(Base 4, Touch +1, Sun +2, Group +2)

Final effect level = level 25 + 1 (2 uses/day) +3 Environmeltal Trigger = 29.

Chest of the Treasure Chamber
Muto Terram 20
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Ind
Makes the inside of a stone chest (or similar container) larger than it appears on the outside. This spell increases the internal volume of the container by a factor of 10.
(Base 4 – highly unnatural, Touch +1, Sun +2, Stone +1)

Final effect level = level 20 + 1 (2 uses/day) +3 Environmeltal Trigger = 24.

I would allow that. It can get rediculous, but hey - it seems like something that should be doable, and one magnitude per doubling seems the right Hermetic scale.

More doubtful, since there is no basic guideline to work from. I'd say yes, but might require two magnitudes.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Stop right there. We didn't talk about increasing the internal volume of something. You can increase the chest itself, or decrease what is put in it - but that's not the same as increasing the internal volume of the chest. I don't think Hermetic magic can do that. It doesn't strictly violate any Limit of Magic, but it's just not the way Hermetic magic works. Hermetic magic doesn't change space itself, it changes things within space. So no, not as described. But you can do a MuTe (perhaps with An and He requisites?) to diminish the size and weight of whatever is put into the chest.

No real problem. A magnitude usuall allows for an increase of factor 10 in the size (mass actually) of the target. So base (3+N) should concievably allow you to cause something to grow by a factor of 2^N in each direction, for a total mass increase of factor 8^N.

I don't see why not.

Now this is something very different.
You can create a container that makes everything inside it smaller without too much fuss, but bigger on the inside than on the outside?
That's an idea that crops up every once in a while, it's discussed here and here but tends to end up with the Merinita mystery of Glamour.

Removing a propoerty of terram stuff is base 5 (HOH:S p37, IIRC). Besides that, nice trick.

YOu could make this a threefold effect:

  1. Reduce weight of everything inside to 0
    2-. Reduce size of everything inside
  2. Reduce size OF THE COFFER

ANd off you go :slight_smile: Not as cheap as your coffer, but still extremely useful and feasible. I can see every covenant having one or 2 of those easily. Once someone thinks about it. It is a great item to go to the city to buy supplies.

Xavi

Actually, there's a canon example of a magical item achieving that in Magi of Hermes. The magical item does use Glamour, but I would contend that this is purely incidental: Glamour simply makes species (Imaginem) of stuff capable of interacting with other things as if they were the stuff itself, rather than just species of the stuff. So if you can pull off this with Glamour, you can pull it off with vanilla hermetic magic of the right form. As was pointed out, it does not violate any of the limits of magic, and it's a fairly common trope.

Ezz, I was talking about 2 dfferent things if you notice.

  1. A container making everything inside it smaller.
    Can be done easily enough via Hermetic Magic, the example is the Granary Chest, MoH p. 69
    [size=85]Incidentially the Convenient Warehouse is wrong, it cannot be R: P, it must be R: Touch.[/size]

This is indisputed and mentioned above as "without too much fuss".

However, this is distinct from
2) A container that's larger on the inside than on the outside.
The example here is the Bottomless Bag (MoH p. 126), and this effect does appear to require the Glamour mystery (did you even follow the links I provided?)
Which is a lot more tricky.

While on the surface these are the same thing, that is not true for all purposes.

/Agree with Tellus.

Ezzelino, with all due respect, the fact that something doesn't violate the rules of magic doesn't mean base hermetic magic can do it, because it is incomplete. And this is a good thing, for it means players have things to search for and to strive for, or must find clever ways to reach their goals nonetheless.

For exemple, binding spirits as familiars doesn't violate any limit of magic. Yet, it is impossible through core hermetic magic. You need a specific mystery for this.
Similarly, there's nothing in the laws of magic prohibiting the bondind of human familiars, or non-magical animals. Yet, AFAIK, this is currently not possible with Hermetic Magic, period.

This is exactly the same here: Manipulating "space" doesn't violate any law of magic (well, actually, it does violate the Law of Time :laughing: ), yet it is something core hermetic magic can't do.

So either you use Glamour (this is one of this mystery's big advantages, don't take it from it!), or you "cheat" and diminish the size of contents, or any clever workaround.

Thanks for the many comments.

So people seem to agree, that I could increase Size further with the addition of magnitudes. Although I agree that it should not be (ab)used to make a chair the size of a city, unless you're specifically aiming for comedy.

Most people seem to agree, that you could shrink items in a similar manner. Some examples from MoH has even been provided, although I do not own the book and cannot find inspiration here, I'm happy to know this.

As I said the question was regarding an item I am thinking to create, and I'm looking for other ways to achieve the same or a similar effect. So my reasons for asking questions on decreasing the size of objects, it that I intend to use it instead of the much-disputed interior size-altering effect. The reason for this design in the first place is, that a character in our Covenant has convinced the SG to allow a spell to create tent similar to those seen in Harry Potter (and many legends btw). Our Troupe already has this effect in play, and seems to like the flavour of it - although I personally would prefer the other route (shrinking objects) if it is indeed possible.

Alternately I could do as Xavi proposed. Since this container already needs more than one effect, and thus cannot be a Lesser Enchanted item - adding a third effect is not a big issue. You would have to open the item for enchantment anyway, and spending 4 seasons instead of 3 (using the same arts) is not that much of an issue. I this case I'm aiming for a stone chest which would easily require 10 pawns to open anyway, so there could be room for a third power anyway I guess.

You can always play the "big big" effect: everything that crosses the rim (iron circle) is reduced in size and +1 to +3 magnitudes for additional effect) reduces its weight to 0. You make it NOT affect Corpus. So you end up with a bag full of tinny items that you must search with your giant-like hand when you want to retrieve something. The advantage of this is that it can be a minor item.

Careful to remove your rings and bracelets if you do not want an instant amputation when they reduce size while you wear them :laughing:

Xavi

I understood. In fact, I was quoting you on point 2 and talking about that. As you mentioned, no issues about 1.

Yes and no. To do it with Imaginem, yes, Glamour is required. But the point is that, if you look carefully at the description of Glamour (and in particularly at the mechanics and the examples rather then at the fluff "it makes illusions real") all it does is make Imaginem capable of interacting with physical stuff as if it were another Form. So if Glamour can do it with Imaginem, Hermetic magic can do it with the appropriate form.

Absolutely ... did you? I posted extensively in the second one, which is the first chronologically :slight_smile:

This is a good and oft disregarded point, but I do not think it applies. There is a fundamental difference.

Binding spirits does not violate limits of magic, but the "vanilla" guidelines only say that you may bind an animal.

Being larger inside than outside does not violate the limits of magic. AND changes making stuff "highly unnatural" are explicitly permitted. Being bigger inside than outside is a common trope for a highly unnatural container or structure.

I contend it is not. If you read the description of Glamour, it does not say or hint at this at all either in the mechanics, or in the examples given. The big advantage of Glamour is that, in conjunction with Creo, you can essentially use Imaginem for any other physical form -- Terram, Auram, Ignem, Animal etc. You are essentially a generalist with the same score in most Forms that a specialist has in only one. That's the huge advantage of Glamour. The second big advantage of Glamour is that Muto and Creo effects use a base level 10; this is higher than low-level guidelines, but lower than high level ones (for example, changing a man into a tree is considerably lower level with Glamour).

But nowhere do the mechanics of Glamour say that it allows you to "warp space". It does not. Or more correctly, it allows you to warp space only insofar as normal Hermetic Magic allows you to do it.

Sure. It´s actually below the bonus you get from a +1 to size modifier so shouldnt be a problem.

One can create illusions of effects that one cannot actually achieve. For instance if a maga had a complete deficiency in PeTe she could not cast Pit of the Gaping Earth but she could still MuIm the illusion of a pit and if she had Glamour then one could dump stuff in the pit - but she still hasn't removed the earth or made it permeable and she couldn't if she tried.

Creating and warping space is different from removing or warping material within that space and hermetic magic has forms for the latter but not the former. However a magus can conceive of warping space and imagine what it would look like if he could so he can create the illusion that he has done so. Glamour lets the illusion work as if it were real but but the magus in this instance no more has the genuine ability to warp space with his other arts than the previous maga had to destroy 20 tons of earth.

That would be an illusion made with Mentem. But with Imaginem, it's very misleading to thing of "illusions" in terms of D&D illusions. Let's be more Ars-Magica-specific. You can create, through Imaginem, species -- corpuscles that do physically interact with things, but carry sensory information. Glamour makes those same species capable of interacting physically with things as if they were the thing that they represented. This is what the Glamour description and examples tell you.

The magus does not conceive of warping space. The magus changes species. In particular he changes the species of the inner part of a bag. Now the bag looks larger inside than it looks outside. It's just species, the image of some thing. It's not a mindscape.

Glamour makes this change -- this unnatural change in fact -- interact with physical stuff. So it actually makes the inside of a bag (which is different from the space inside the bag) larger than the outside. Alternatively, you could have just used Muto+appropriate Form to change the inside of the bag so that it was larger than the outside. Remember, you are not warping space. You are changing the bag, not the "space" (or the Bottomless Bag's Range would not be Personal). Very much like, when you press a bag with Rego magic, you are not "pushing the space out".

It's really important to read the description of Glamour:

That's why I thought your statements so curious.

We may have to simply agree to disagree on this, however:

'Mainstream' hermetic magic generally does not allow the warping of space.
The only spell that seems to work through warping of space is the Hermes Portal - and even that is contended s well as being marked as 'Mercurian Ritual' rather than being a truely hermetic effect.

Glamour does not indicate that it allows the warping of space either but it does allow users to create illusions that are 'just a little bit more real'.
This allows for certain ordinarily 'impossible' options.

All this said, I find my reservations about using Glamour for this purpose re-awakened.
Which from where I stand reduces the situation to the following:
We either:

  1. Use Glamour (maybe?)
  2. Use Hermetc Architecture and work with aurae and regii.
  3. Find that it does not violate the laws of magic, but is not cuurently possible, thus something to research as major project.
    or
  4. Find that it does volate the laws of magic (though I do not see how).