Muto vim errata edit

[Erik_Tyrrell]

I was going to send the following email (or something very much like it), to David in regards to the Muto vim changes in the first printing errata. But upon reflection, I'm not sure it's as good of an idea as I had thought. Comments and critiques are welcome.

The erratum for muto vim copied below I believe causes problems for the game

Muto Vim (p. 159): Add the following paragraph to the end of the general description: "A Muto Vim spell, like any other Muto spell, can only change its target for as long as the Muto Vim spell is in effect. Thus, its duration should normally be at least as long as the spell that is its target. The spells below have a duration of Momentary, but versions with longer Durations can be invented as normal."

I'm going to try and convince you to change it

It doesn't make sense for range boosting spells to require a duration longer than momentary
A character who wants to use muto vim to enhance spells will need a fantastically large list of spells with which to do it, not just a spell for each form but several spells for each form.
It becomes two magnitudes harder to boost a duration sun level 20 (requires level 35) spell than a duration momentary level 20 spell(requires level 25). This seems to me to be sloppy and unintuitive. precisely the sort of rule that would confirm a prospective players fears about the game being too complex.
People who use the first printing of the text and don't check the errata will be very disappointed if their characters have a duration boosting spell that suddenly doesn't work.

Instead I'd like to build off of the paragraph on page 159 that says "It is not possible...to use muto vim to affect another spell after it has already been cast"

I would suggest that the addition "All muto vim spells change the casting of their target spells rather than the final spell. The target spells are altered not because of a continuing magical effect but because the manner of their creation was altered to produce a slightly different spell." be added. This makes in game sense and it keeps the rules both simple and intuitive at the cost of having the in setting logic become a bit more twisted.

[ExarKun]

My thoughts on that matter were already said.
Here:

MutoVim has to be cast on spells before they are created.

And something "before its creation" doesn't exist (you can't target Bismark with perdo corpus). So the target of MuVi is not a spell (it doesn't exist). It's magical energy, which ends when the spell is cast, after the effect of MuVi, and thus, the spell is perfectly natural.
The spell being not the target of the MuVi cast before its existence, but only the result of its application to its target (the magical energy worked in a spell during a process called "casting spell"), the MuVi :

• is momentary (however if your casting was ritual or ceremonial, it would have had a duration) in case of formulaic
• has to penetrate the penetration of the non cooperating caster (not the MR : magical energy is external), because penetration is the "strength" of a spell, and your spell has to force the other caster to affect his process of casting.

and here:

However I lack to understand how it can work since the Muto Vim spell resulted in a real consequence and I think this errata clearly create a paradox for muto vim magic.*
The "magical energy" you were working (which is not a spell) turned by your muto vim in a spell which is real; when the spell is cast, the "magical energy" is gone. So there is no more "muto" magic. This is enforced by the fact that you are only able to muto vim spell which are not yet cast. A spell not cast is not a spell, but magical energy in process of becoming a spell. PerdoVim can affect both. Muto is said to be imperfect regarding transforming magic.
So, IMO, it's like using a momentary muto spell to transform you in a geant form, breaking chains which were holding you. When the momentary spell is gone, the chains are still destroyed.

• the errata says that muto vim must have a duration for the spell affected, but muto vim says that it can't affect a spell. I think that thinking in term of "transforming the magical energy" is more accurate and answer the problems.

in summary:
1- muto vim CAN'T target a spell. Because the spell is "magical energy brought to existence" and MutoVim is not able to affect an existing spell. Otherwise, the limitation on "can't affect an existing spell" has no reason and is purely artificial.
2- thus Muto Vim is: "acting on the magical energy", the magical energy being the process by which a magus casts a spell
3- MutoVim only work on formulaic spell, because it is the process to alter the substance of the magical energy. Since spontaneous is already an alterance of magical energy, it can't be altered more (no sense to transform a human into the same human - magic wouldn't work).
4- The magical energy is always momentary: it appears only at the moment the spell is cast, briefly and immediatly produce a spell. For that reason, momentary MutoVim is the only legit duration for MutoVim.
(If you are ceremonially casting, the magical energy is only really used during the last round of your casting, which mean that all previous time is used to gather a bigger magical energy; it may even NOT be possible to alter a ceremonial casting formulaic spell because from one hand it requires a mystery "mercurian magic" which is innately opposite to MutoVim (which is a "spontaneous" approach of magic) and on the other hand ceremonial casting is borrowed from spontaneous type of spell casting; it may even not be possible to alter a ritual or it could require a duration for those particuliar cases: RAW don't say that rituals may be affected by MuVi and only adress formulaic.)
5- Thus, with a temporary MutoVim, you transform the magical energy of a formulaic into the magical energy of a spontaneous spell, but without most of the downside of spontaneous (which is the reduction of power, meaning the /2 or /5 to casting total) - depending on the guideline, Muto Vim is either a little side effect (guideline 1), almost an application of flexible formulaic magic (guideline 2) - except that MuVi can modify the base, which is something FFM can't - or a fully spontaneous spell (guideline 3 and 4 [4 being the addition of Creo requisite]) during a few seconds... the seconds which precede the natural transformation of that energy into a spell. The spell is thus perfect and not unnatural (as are the excrements of a magus turned into a dog).

[maine75man]

I wholeheartedly agree. To me the errata looks like someone came in after the fact and said' "Uhoh this doesn't fit with how Muto works we better change it." without actually realizing the original version kinda took that into acount.

I made this post on another thread.

@In this thread (https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/wizards-boost-and-penetration/5830/12) I

The Muto Vim guidlines start out by saying.

@ArM pg 159

Most Muto Vim spells last as long as the spell they have altered, with the nominal duration of momentary.

Now nominal often means something along the lines "not actual" or "in name only'. So don't you think this sentence could be read as.

The duration of most Muto Vim spells is momentary in name only, and they affect the spell they have altered for it's entire duration.

Of course the errata says what it says so that overrules that interpretation. Or does it? If the duration of most Muto Vim spells is not actually momentary then it must be some special duration. So this special duration is called Momentary, but it lasts as long as the target spell. A stretch yes but any time two rules seem to contradict you either have to toss out one or the other or stretch both till they fit. Some spells like The Sorcerers Fork would still use the standard duration rules for conceptual or Rule One reasons. Also some spells would only need the standard momentary duration because the spell really only effects things important at the moment of casting like Wizards Communion.

This bit of house ruling gives you a Muto Vim thats consistent with other Muto magic, doesn't have to pay for duration twice, explains the need to be cast with the other spell and finally isn't substantially weakened.

[Kid_Gloves]

I'm on board with that suggestion.

Muto Vim isn't ridiculously overpowered with everything being of momentary duration. It is extremely poor performing with the errata change. Wizard's Communion in particular loses big - with the errata it's pretty much a total waste to use wizard's communion to boost an Aegis casting, because the wizard's communion also needs to be year duration and thus also a ritual.

Bleh to that!

[DIREWOLF75]

The erratum for muto vim copied below I believe causes problems for the game

Well i was going to write something but i see that former posters have pretty much covered it already.
So i guess im basically saying +1 to the previous posters.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

I notice that shroud magic in the text violates the "It is not possible...to use muto vim to affect another spell after it has already been cast" rule on the very same page of the book.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@ExarKun

My thoughts on that matter were already said.
Here:

• has to penetrate the penetration of the non cooperating caster (not the MR : magical energy is external), because penetration is the "strength" of a spell, and your spell has to force the other caster to affect his process of casting.

I think that this is a bit of unneeded complexity that... um, we don't need.

Can we not just say that the magic energy may be outside of the parma when a magus is cooperating (that's what cooperating means in this instance) and otherwise the muto vim needs to penetrate the caster's parma? Or does this lead to some sort of issue that I'm not seeing>

[Cuchulainshound]

Off the top of my head, one issue is that would imply that a mage can "warp the magical energy" around another mage w/ a MuVi w/ Duration - and what then happens if that other mage "stops cooperating"?

Aside from some of the canon effects*, I've never had a player who used the MuVi rules, errated or no, precisely for the above complaints - they are convoluted for those who don't understand the magic system, they are jarringly counter-intuitive for those who do, and you get very little "bang for the buck".

(* spec Shroud, Boost, Communion)

When I tried to build a MuVi mage (as an antagonist and just to see how it would look), I ran into the same problems you mentioned - too many spells, of too high magnitude, for too little return. (Decided that if I wanted to go that direction, I'd just go with Flexible Formulaic Magic and call it good.)

If the orig idea was to prevent abuse (and that has to be a consideration), it succeeded - but not in the way expected. I think the goal was to prevent allowing MuVi from easily multiplying one spell into many, many different spells and thus become THE TeFo combo, a literal "force multiplier" as far as versatility, but instead it simply is too unattractive to use.

[DIREWOLF75]

@Erik Tyrrell

I notice that shroud magic in the text violates the "It is not possible...to use muto vim to affect another spell after it has already been cast" rule on the very same page of the book.

And it´s a rule that doesnt work anyway. It just causes strangeness.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@DIREWOLF75

@Erik Tyrrell

I notice that shroud magic in the text violates the "It is not possible...to use muto vim to affect another spell after it has already been cast" rule on the very same page of the book.

And it´s a rule that doesnt work anyway. It just causes strangeness.

I think that one works fine

[ExarKun]

If we are speaking about the rule "can't affect an existing spell", I think my previous post already give my opinion on this: Erik +1

[DIREWOLF75]

@Erik Tyrrell

@DIREWOLF75

@Erik Tyrrell

I notice that shroud magic in the text violates the "It is not possible...to use muto vim to affect another spell after it has already been cast" rule on the very same page of the book.

And it´s a rule that doesnt work anyway. It just causes strangeness.

I think that one works fine

Even when a canon spell already breaks the rule?

[Tellus]

MuVi is a mess and needs a cleaning up.

What is suggested is better than the current version.

[Kid_Gloves]

@Cuchulainshound

If the orig idea was to prevent abuse (and that has to be a consideration), it succeeded - but not in the way expected. I think the goal was to prevent allowing MuVi from easily multiplying one spell into many, many different spells and thus become THE TeFo combo, a literal "force multiplier" as far as versatility, but instead it simply is too unattractive to use.

It's succeeded way too much.

Lets take the purely-rules assumption (i.e. I'm not trying to justify the rules with in-game explanations) that a muto vim spell of momentary duration can change the target spell as it is being cast and on top of that the muto vim spell only needs to penetrate magic resistance if you're casting it on a spell being cast by a hostile magus:

A magus with ~30 MuVi spells will be able to duplicate the behavior of Flexible Formulaic Magic, only they have to cast two spells (twice the botch opportunity) and make a concentration roll. So unless they also master their MuVi spells for fast-casting they've essentially also won themselves the 'slow caster' flaw. And even then they're limited by the level they know their MuVi spell at.

Investing ~10 years into replicating a major virtue but not quite as good? Honestly, if someone pours that kind of time into it then I say let them have their slow-casting force multiplier.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@DIREWOLF75

@Erik Tyrrell

@DIREWOLF75

@Erik Tyrrell

I notice that shroud magic in the text violates the "It is not possible...to use muto vim to affect another spell after it has already been cast" rule on the very same page of the book.

And it´s a rule that doesnt work anyway. It just causes strangeness.

I think that one works fine

Even when a canon spell already breaks the rule?

Yes. (an oversight on a single spell that I hadn't noticed prior to yesterday even dating back to the fifth edition play tests hardly counts as a difficulty).

[Erik_Tyrrell]

"All muto vim spells change the casting of their target spells rather than the final spell. The target spells are altered not because of a continuing magical effect but because the manner of their creation was altered to produce a slightly different spell."

So if we're all on board with this being an improvement, how do I phrase a suggested change that gets the idea across clearly? My first shot at it (above) seems convoluted (despite its brevity).

[Cuchulainshound]

Hmmm - not so much imo. Perhaps a bit of formatting could deconvolute, if I may make so bold as to take a swing as editor?... (feel free to adopt, adapt or ignore, as you choose, np)

(There are several minor punctuation tweaks; text changes are in blue)

88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

The current erratum for Muto Vim (copied below), I believe, causes problems for the game.

Muto Vim (p. 159): Add the following paragraph to the end of the general description: "A Muto Vim spell, like any other Muto spell, can only change its target for as long as the Muto Vim spell is in effect. Thus, its duration should normally be at least as long as the spell that is its target. The spells below have a duration of Momentary, but versions with longer Durations can be invented as normal."

I'm going to try and convince you to change it, in large part because...

[list]* It doesn't make sense for range boosting spells to require a duration longer than momentary.
[*] A character who wants to use Muto Vim to enhance spells will need a fantastically large list of spells with which to do it, not just a spell for each form but several spells for each form.

• It becomes two magnitudes harder to boost a duration sun level 20 (requires level 35) spell than a duration momentary level 20 spell(requires level 25). This seems to me to be sloppy and unintuitive. precisely the sort of rule that would confirm a prospective players fears about the game being too complex.
• People who use the first printing of the text and don't check the errata will be very disappointed if their characters have a duration-boosting spell that suddenly doesn't work.
• I'm not the only person to see these problems, only the latest to suggest a concrete solution on the Atlas forums. (include link to this thread here)

In place of the current errata, I'd like to build off of the paragraph on page 159 that says "It is not possible...to use muto vim to affect another spell after it has already been cast"

I would suggest (something close to) this addition:

"All muto vim spells change the casting of their target spells rather than the final spell. The target spells are altered not because of a continuing magical effect but because the manner of their creation was altered to produce a slightly different spell." This makes in-game sense and it keeps the rules both simple and intuitive at the (arguable) cost of having the in-setting logic become a bit more twisted.[/*:m][/list:u]

[Tugdual]

@Erik Tyrrell

"All muto vim spells change the casting of their target spells rather than the final spell. The target spells are altered not because of a continuing magical effect but because the manner of their creation was altered to produce a slightly different spell."

So if we're all on board with this being an improvement, how do I phrase a suggested change that gets the idea across clearly? My first shot at it (above) seems convoluted (despite its brevity).

"All muto vim spells are momentary and must target another spell being cast. The alterations on the target spell are permanent as if those were its original properties."

[Erik_Tyrrell]

I sent an email to David, I guess we'll see what he thinks.

[callen]

I really like this suggestion:

@Cuchulainshound

I would suggest (something close to) this addition:

"All muto vim spells change the casting of their target spells rather than the final spell. The target spells are altered not because of a continuing magical effect but because the manner of their creation was altered to produce a slightly different spell."

This makes in-game sense and it keeps the rules both simple and intuitive at the (arguable) cost of having the in-setting logic become a bit more twisted.

I like that it gives a reason along with the clarity. That makes it more understandable and thus easier to apply to other similar effects. It might need a note about rituals, though. In that case should the MuVi spell be Concentration instead of Momentary?

Chris