Muto vim errata edit

I was going to send the following email (or something very much like it), to David in regards to the Muto vim changes in the first printing errata. But upon reflection, I'm not sure it's as good of an idea as I had thought. Comments and critiques are welcome.

The erratum for muto vim copied below I believe causes problems for the game

I'm going to try and convince you to change it

It doesn't make sense for range boosting spells to require a duration longer than momentary
A character who wants to use muto vim to enhance spells will need a fantastically large list of spells with which to do it, not just a spell for each form but several spells for each form.
It becomes two magnitudes harder to boost a duration sun level 20 (requires level 35) spell than a duration momentary level 20 spell(requires level 25). This seems to me to be sloppy and unintuitive. precisely the sort of rule that would confirm a prospective players fears about the game being too complex.
People who use the first printing of the text and don't check the errata will be very disappointed if their characters have a duration boosting spell that suddenly doesn't work.

Instead I'd like to build off of the paragraph on page 159 that says "It is not possible...to use muto vim to affect another spell after it has already been cast"

I would suggest that the addition "All muto vim spells change the casting of their target spells rather than the final spell. The target spells are altered not because of a continuing magical effect but because the manner of their creation was altered to produce a slightly different spell." be added. This makes in game sense and it keeps the rules both simple and intuitive at the cost of having the in setting logic become a bit more twisted.

My thoughts on that matter were already said.
Here:

and here:

in summary:
1- muto vim CAN'T target a spell. Because the spell is "magical energy brought to existence" and MutoVim is not able to affect an existing spell. Otherwise, the limitation on "can't affect an existing spell" has no reason and is purely artificial.
2- thus Muto Vim is: "acting on the magical energy", the magical energy being the process by which a magus casts a spell
3- MutoVim only work on formulaic spell, because it is the process to alter the substance of the magical energy. Since spontaneous is already an alterance of magical energy, it can't be altered more (no sense to transform a human into the same human - magic wouldn't work).
4- The magical energy is always momentary: it appears only at the moment the spell is cast, briefly and immediatly produce a spell. For that reason, momentary MutoVim is the only legit duration for MutoVim.
(If you are ceremonially casting, the magical energy is only really used during the last round of your casting, which mean that all previous time is used to gather a bigger magical energy; it may even NOT be possible to alter a ceremonial casting formulaic spell because from one hand it requires a mystery "mercurian magic" which is innately opposite to MutoVim (which is a "spontaneous" approach of magic) and on the other hand ceremonial casting is borrowed from spontaneous type of spell casting; it may even not be possible to alter a ritual or it could require a duration for those particuliar cases: RAW don't say that rituals may be affected by MuVi and only adress formulaic.)
5- Thus, with a temporary MutoVim, you transform the magical energy of a formulaic into the magical energy of a spontaneous spell, but without most of the downside of spontaneous (which is the reduction of power, meaning the /2 or /5 to casting total) - depending on the guideline, Muto Vim is either a little side effect (guideline 1), almost an application of flexible formulaic magic (guideline 2) - except that MuVi can modify the base, which is something FFM can't - or a fully spontaneous spell (guideline 3 and 4 [4 being the addition of Creo requisite]) during a few seconds... the seconds which precede the natural transformation of that energy into a spell. The spell is thus perfect and not unnatural (as are the excrements of a magus turned into a dog).

I wholeheartedly agree. To me the errata looks like someone came in after the fact and said' "Uhoh this doesn't fit with how Muto works we better change it." without actually realizing the original version kinda took that into acount.

I made this post on another thread.

I'm on board with that suggestion.

Muto Vim isn't ridiculously overpowered with everything being of momentary duration. It is extremely poor performing with the errata change. Wizard's Communion in particular loses big - with the errata it's pretty much a total waste to use wizard's communion to boost an Aegis casting, because the wizard's communion also needs to be year duration and thus also a ritual.

Bleh to that!

Well i was going to write something but i see that former posters have pretty much covered it already.
So i guess im basically saying +1 to the previous posters.

I notice that shroud magic in the text violates the "It is not possible...to use muto vim to affect another spell after it has already been cast" rule on the very same page of the book.

I think that this is a bit of unneeded complexity that... um, we don't need.

Can we not just say that the magic energy may be outside of the parma when a magus is cooperating (that's what cooperating means in this instance) and otherwise the muto vim needs to penetrate the caster's parma? Or does this lead to some sort of issue that I'm not seeing>

Off the top of my head, one issue is that would imply that a mage can "warp the magical energy" around another mage w/ a MuVi w/ Duration - and what then happens if that other mage "stops cooperating"?

Aside from some of the canon effects*, I've never had a player who used the MuVi rules, errated or no, precisely for the above complaints - they are convoluted for those who don't understand the magic system, they are jarringly counter-intuitive for those who do, and you get very little "bang for the buck".

(* spec Shroud, Boost, Communion)

When I tried to build a MuVi mage (as an antagonist and just to see how it would look), I ran into the same problems you mentioned - too many spells, of too high magnitude, for too little return. (Decided that if I wanted to go that direction, I'd just go with Flexible Formulaic Magic and call it good.)

If the orig idea was to prevent abuse (and that has to be a consideration), it succeeded - but not in the way expected. I think the goal was to prevent allowing MuVi from easily multiplying one spell into many, many different spells and thus become THE TeFo combo, a literal "force multiplier" as far as versatility, but instead it simply is too unattractive to use.

And it´s a rule that doesnt work anyway. It just causes strangeness.

I think that one works fine

If we are speaking about the rule "can't affect an existing spell", I think my previous post already give my opinion on this: Erik +1

Even when a canon spell already breaks the rule?

MuVi is a mess and needs a cleaning up.

What is suggested is better than the current version.

It's succeeded way too much.

Lets take the purely-rules assumption (i.e. I'm not trying to justify the rules with in-game explanations) that a muto vim spell of momentary duration can change the target spell as it is being cast and on top of that the muto vim spell only needs to penetrate magic resistance if you're casting it on a spell being cast by a hostile magus:

A magus with ~30 MuVi spells will be able to duplicate the behavior of Flexible Formulaic Magic, only they have to cast two spells (twice the botch opportunity) and make a concentration roll. So unless they also master their MuVi spells for fast-casting they've essentially also won themselves the 'slow caster' flaw. And even then they're limited by the level they know their MuVi spell at.

Investing ~10 years into replicating a major virtue but not quite as good? Honestly, if someone pours that kind of time into it then I say let them have their slow-casting force multiplier.

Yes. (an oversight on a single spell that I hadn't noticed prior to yesterday even dating back to the fifth edition play tests hardly counts as a difficulty).

So if we're all on board with this being an improvement, how do I phrase a suggested change that gets the idea across clearly? My first shot at it (above) seems convoluted (despite its brevity).

Hmmm - not so much imo. Perhaps a bit of formatting could deconvolute, if I may make so bold as to take a swing as editor?... (feel free to adopt, adapt or ignore, as you choose, np)

(There are several minor punctuation tweaks; text changes are in blue)

88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

The current erratum for Muto Vim (copied below), I believe, causes problems for the game.

I'm going to try and convince you to change it, in large part because...

[list]* It doesn't make sense for range boosting spells to require a duration longer than momentary.
[*] A character who wants to use Muto Vim to enhance spells will need a fantastically large list of spells with which to do it, not just a spell for each form but several spells for each form.

  • It becomes two magnitudes harder to boost a duration sun level 20 (requires level 35) spell than a duration momentary level 20 spell(requires level 25). This seems to me to be sloppy and unintuitive. precisely the sort of rule that would confirm a prospective players fears about the game being too complex.
  • People who use the first printing of the text and don't check the errata will be very disappointed if their characters have a duration-boosting spell that suddenly doesn't work.
  • I'm not the only person to see these problems, only the latest to suggest a concrete solution on the Atlas forums. (include link to this thread here)

In place of the current errata, I'd like to build off of the paragraph on page 159 that says "It is not possible...to use muto vim to affect another spell after it has already been cast"

I would suggest (something close to) this addition:

"All muto vim spells change the casting of their target spells rather than the final spell. The target spells are altered not because of a continuing magical effect but because the manner of their creation was altered to produce a slightly different spell."
This makes in-game sense and it keeps the rules both simple and intuitive at the (arguable) cost of having the in-setting logic become a bit more twisted.[/*:m][/list:u]

"All muto vim spells are momentary and must target another spell being cast. The alterations on the target spell are permanent as if those were its original properties."

I sent an email to David, I guess we'll see what he thinks.

I really like this suggestion:

I like that it gives a reason along with the clarity. That makes it more understandable and thus easier to apply to other similar effects. It might need a note about rituals, though. In that case should the MuVi spell be Concentration instead of Momentary?

Chris