Muto vim errata edit

[ExarKun]

Suffice to say that the spell is errata'ed:

• special duration at +0 magnitudes
  "Being non hermetic, the duration of that spell suffice to cast any spell, ritual, ceremonial or not. It cannot affect spontaneous as normal.
  This spell effect cannot be duplicated normally."
  That solves things.

AS for the sigil spell, traces of magic may be one of the things vim is able to affect.

Thus it could be used either on a spell in creation, either on the remaining traces. The latter needs a duration as usual, but the former not.
Traces not being a spell, it's ok by rules.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

The problem wizard's communion is that in previous editions it was used to cast a spell beyond the abilities of a caster from a text. In fifth edition casting tablets aren't as big of a deal as casting from texts was in prior editions so Wizard's Communion ended up being little more than a penetration enhancer with an increased botch chance. I've never particularly associated it with Aegis of the Hearth because Aegis of the hearth had never needed a high penetration prior to fifth edition (and it doesn't in my games now).

[Erik_Tyrrell]

From the errata just posted

Muto Vim Guidelines (p. 159): Replace the final paragraph with the following: "Muto Vim spells work by altering the magical energies that create the spell as it is being cast. The spell is the result of the combination of the base casting and the Muto Vim effect, and has its effect once both the casting and the Muto Vim effect have finished. This means that a Muto Vim spell must have a duration at least as long as the casting of the target spell, but need not last for as long as the spell itself. For normally-cast formulaic spells, a Momentary Duration is sufficient, but if the casting time is longer for any reason, the Muto Vim spell must also have a longer Duration; Sun is sufficient for any practical Ritual."

[Tellus]

hardly 'just posted' but from the errata indeed.
And such excellent errata it is

[MarioJPC]

Yeah, important after 2 editions of the Core, and one thing more, the other of the same book is interesting (addition of Martial Abilities on Failed Apprentice) too.

[gerg]

@ArM5

a Muto Vim spell must have a duration at least as long as the casting of the target spell, but need not last for as long as the spell itself. For normally-cast formulaic spells, a Momentary Duration is sufficient, but if the casting time is longer for any reason, the Muto Vim spell must also have a longer Duration

It just occurred to me that this is an unexpected benefit of the Flaw "Slow Caster" ... so much for your Wizard's War opponent's attempt to use Muto Vim on you

[David_Chart]

@Tellus

hardly 'just posted' but from the errata indeed.

Well, the errata are "just posted"...

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@gerg

@ArM5

a Muto Vim spell must have a duration at least as long as the casting of the target spell, but need not last for as long as the spell itself. For normally-cast formulaic spells, a Momentary Duration is sufficient, but if the casting time is longer for any reason, the Muto Vim spell must also have a longer Duration

It just occurred to me that this is an unexpected benefit of the Flaw "Slow Caster" ... so much for your Wizard's War opponent's attempt to use Muto Vim on you

On the other hand so much for your allies being able to boost your spells .

[jebrick]

@Erik Tyrrell

From the errata just posted

Muto Vim Guidelines (p. 159): Replace the final paragraph with the following: "Muto Vim spells work by altering the magical energies that create the spell as it is being cast. The spell is the result of the combination of the base casting and the Muto Vim effect, and has its effect once both the casting and the Muto Vim effect have finished. This means that a Muto Vim spell must have a duration at least as long as the casting of the target spell, but need not last for as long as the spell itself. For normally-cast formulaic spells, a Momentary Duration is sufficient, but if the casting time is longer for any reason, the Muto Vim spell must also have a longer Duration; Sun is sufficient for any practical Ritual."

Can we assume that the Wizards Communion that a character gets with the Mercurial Magic Virtue is a duration of Sun?

[David_Chart]

@jebrick

Can we assume that the Wizards Communion that a character gets with the Mercurial Magic Virtue is a duration of Sun?

That sounds fair enough.

[Cuchulainshound]

Considering the'yd then still have to get other magi to learn the same Dur:Sun version before it was worth anything, I think it's only fair.

[MarioJPC]

One made to Ritual Spells with Duration: Sun can be Mastered with the Multiple casting option, to be casted on all (or many) of the Ritual Spell casted on the next hours, ideall to Mercurian magi and to Healers.

[Tugdual]

@MarioJPC

One made to Ritual Spells with Duration: Sun can be Mastered with the Multiple casting option, to be casted on all (or many) of the Ritual Spell casted on the next hours, ideall to Mercurian magi and to Healers.

Erm, no. You cannot Target something that doesn't exists and Multiple Casting means you'd all cast them in the same round. Only if they were cast concurrently would it work.

[Tugdual]

@ArM5

a Muto Vim spell must have a duration at least as long as the casting of the target spell, but need not last for as long as the spell itself. For normally-cast formulaic spells, a Momentary Duration is sufficient, but if the casting time is longer for any reason, the Muto Vim spell must also have a longer Duration

How about those 2 edge cases?

• You don't have to cast WC at the start of the ritual.
• For a ritual spreading across noon or midnight, you must cast WC in the late part.

[Cuchulainshound]

Well, the last sentence in the description of WC (p 160) states that "...it does not fit perfectly into the guidelines of Hermetic theory", so that alone invites SG's to rule as best fits their Troupe/Saga.

[Jonathan.Link]

@David Chart

@jebrick

Can we assume that the Wizards Communion that a character gets with the Mercurial Magic Virtue is a duration of Sun?

That sounds fair enough.

IMS, this is what I've done, with the further refinement: changing duration to sun reduces, by two magnitudes, the power to be lent to the ritual/spell.

[MarioJPC]

@Tugdual

@MarioJPC

One made to Ritual Spells with Duration: Sun can be Mastered with the Multiple casting option, to be casted on all (or many) of the Ritual Spell casted on the next hours, ideall to Mercurian magi and to Healers.

Erm, no. You cannot Target something that doesn't exists and Multiple Casting means you'd all cast them in the same round. Only if they were cast concurrently would it work.

Ok i spose some reason, but agian, i think that in the case of the Sun duration to Ritual, you cold spend the others uses on others Rituals spells.
Thera are two way to durations effects, the more common is the simple duration of the effect, you change or creat something about one interval of time, but thera re other taht work on taht you can use an effect on that interval. Som Sun/Touch spells work on taht manner, and on CrVi is applied that the no is possible the use continue of the PeCo for example. But on some cases is posible the more Duration, specially if we think about Tethered spells and similar spellcasting.

[Cuchulainshound]

@MarioJPC

Ok i spose some reason, but agian, i think that in the case of the Sun duration to Ritual, you cold spend the others uses on others Rituals spells.

... but thera re other taht work on taht you can use an effect on that interval. Som Sun/Touch spells work on taht manner...

Could you cite any canon examples?

[MarioJPC]

Ok, i say one typical.
First the "Unfaithfull Favor" from HoH: TL, you send a silk against somebody, you can control it in the duration, but you can't send it more time.
Agian, from HoH: TL, over the rules about "Tethered spells" say that the duration is the time that the efect can affect on the time to the appropiated subject or objective, not the duration of the spell themself.
Again, the Muto Vim with Sun duration to one Ritual Spell.
And, the spells that affect the water and earth over the transport, they are aprt, but the aprt is those that you touch over duration, not the part first affected.
I sorry by my language deficiency.

[Christian_Andersen (Christian Rosenkjaer Andersen)]

@Cuchulainshound

Considering the'yd then still have to get other magi to learn the same Dur:Sun version before it was worth anything, I think it's only fair.

Sure. But I see the entire concept as being used by a bunch of Mercurians to help each other, so they will all know WC automatically. If the lone Mercurian at the covenant wants to use his awesome powers to help all the magi cast something big together, the rest'll need to work for it.

I currently play a Mercurian. I can't for the life of me remember why I chose that as Major Hermetic Virtue, he was created long ago. He is a Jerbiton for crying out loud! I should need and want Gentle Gift. But I guess I just thought Mercurian Magic sounded cool, I even gimped him further on spontaneous magic. I hadn't considered how saving vis on Rituals was going to be a help for him, but eventually I turned him in to a bit of a healer. I have never used WC but always wanted to, for some 15 years of playing ArM, both 4th and 5th ed. Some day though...