Muto Vim Level Limits

I have one question that was raised by a colleague in the spanish community. With the errata of this particular line in the Muto Vim guidelines:

An increase in power or parameters may not raise the level of the target spell above the guideline level used for the Muto Vim spell.

This means that Wizard's Boost is OK finally, but it breaks Wizard's Reach, as its description says:

Wizard's Reach (Form)
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
The range of the targeted spell increases by one category. You may not affect a single spell more than once with this spell, and the targeted spell must be at least one magnitude lower in level than this spell. There are ten versions of Wizard's Reach, one for each Form.
(Base effect, +2 Voice)

Am I just wrong or misinterpreting this errata? Because to me it seems like spells similar to Wizard's Reach all need clarification and an errata to adapt to the aforementioned new line in the MuVi guidelines.

Apologies if this was clarified earlier in this forum, but I did a thorough search and didn't find anything.

I think this wasn't clear enough. It's not really supposed to be the guideline's level, but the level managed by the guideline.

I don't see the problem with RAI. The guideline gives +2, so the limit is the same limit as the spell's level. If the spell to be affected is not lower than the spell's level by a magnitude, then raising its Range by a magnitude would make it too high a level.

What does this mean? Could you please give an example?

Wouldn't this simply be fixed by adding this (emphasis) to Wizard's Reach et al's description?

Wizard's Reach (Form)
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
The range of the targeted spell increases by one category. You may not affect a single spell more than once with this spell, and the targeted spell must be at least one magnitude lower in level than this spell 's base level. There are ten versions of Wizard's Reach, one for each Form.
(Base effect, +2 Voice)

I mean if you have a spell that, for example, requires a guideline of 10 to work on a level-20 spell, it should work on a level-20 spell, not be capped at a level-10 spell.

"Level" in a spell refers to the level of the spell. "Level" in a guideline refers to the level of the guideline/base.

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Urk. I think something is wrong here.

First thing to clear up: You can have a MuVi spell that superficially changes a spell of much higher level, as long as it does not increase the power of that spell. Superficial changes can't change the power, so that is no problem.

The problem under the old rules was MuVi 10 getting you a level 15 spell, which is metaphysically wrong even if not a major game balance issue.

The erratum in the guidelines actually says that the level cannot be boosted past the guideline for the spell, before any increases in level for Range etc. However, both Wizard's Boost and Wizard's Reach use the level of the spell for this. (Note that you can decrease the power of a level 15 spell with a level 10 guideline, but the guideline errata says that you cannot increase the power of a level 10 spell with a level 10 guideline, even though that could affect level 15 spells.)

Metaphysically, I think the guideline is correct, and both the spells need to be changed. Wizard's Reach can only affect spells three magnitudes lower, while Wizard's Boost needs them to be at least six levels lower. However, that may not be the best solution.

And this is sufficiently complex that I'm not sure I have understood it correctly. This is a bad sign… It probably needs to be simplified for ease of use, by referring to the level of the final spell including RDT adjustments, and thus making both spells correct.

Comments?

(I'm going to split this to a new thread.)

Yes, that's what I was saying above, that a superficial change target shouldn't be capped at the level of the guideline.

Yes, writing it in terms of the level of the spell might help. Specifying an increase v. any change may be enough, that you can affect a spell with a higher level, but you can never raise the level beyond the level of the spell used. I'll have to think on it further.

From what I can see the rule should be "at least one of the two spells must be of the level of the final effect produced.". For example if you want to increase a spell one range category the MuVI must be the effected spells level +5. If you want to change a ReTe spell that produces horseshoes to instead produce nails the MuVi may be of a lower level than the ReTe. (Because the ReTe has a sufficient level for either effect). If you want to boost a CrIg spells damage, the MuVi must equal the level of a CrIg spells doing similar damage.

But there shouldn't be a problem with a MuVi 40 spell boosting a TeFo 5 spell to TeFo 10, even though neither the MuVi 40 nor the TeFo 5 spell are level 10. But if move "at least," then it could work:

I suppose you could leave it in the beginning, too, though it's logically unnecessary.

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How about:

An increase in power or parameters may not raise the level of the target spell above the level of the Muto Vim spell.

We don't need to say anything about effects that do not raise the level of the target spell — they can just be handled by the guidelines.

We are still at the point where small things, like this, can be fixed in the text that will be printed.

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I am guessing the colleague that sparkled this question would want to get his voice heard, but regarding my opinion — I'd say this solution is fine, but still you have this case where:

  • A level 20 Wizard's Boost (as its written) can affect spells up to level 15.
  • A level 25 Wizard's Reach (as its written) can affect spells up to level 20.

Both use 15 levels for the base (R: parameter not included) but have a different maximum target level.

This is the main complaint that I have: Inconsistency in how the resulting spell is different, given the same guideline is being used.

They aren't inconsistent, and they can both affect spells of up to level 20. A level 20 Wizard's Boost can raise a level 19 spell to level 20. The influence of the (consistent) cap at the level of the MuVi spell is different in both cases, because they have different levels.

I do see where you are coming from, but limits in Vim magic are all (I think) based on the level of the spell, not the level of guideline. Using the level of the guideline here may introduce more complexity and confusion than is wise, even though it does make sense in the game. The additional levels for Range are not part of the core power of the spell, in some sense. On the other hand, Hermetic magic is not real, so there is nothing to stop us saying that the levels for Range are part of the power of the spell, and thus affect the limit on increasing the power of another spell.

Sorry to be late to this discussion. I’m the colleague that Kandahar refers to, and I feel compelled not to leave him alone in this conversation.

And also apologies in advance if my explanation is pretty obvious (or completely the opposite), I'm unable to find a better way in doing so. While I was writing this reply you’ve made clear your point of view of the MuVi guidelines (which I still feel inconsistent).

My concern predates the last errata, and is focused on the description of Wizard’s Boost. As Kandahar has pointed, the issue is that previously to this change, WB worked differently than the other MuVi spells (Wizard’s Reach, Wizard’s Expansion and Group Wizard’s Boost, the last ones from Magi of Hermes’ Ranulf repertoire), affecting spells 1 magnitude lower as the old guide implied.

The February errata corrects WB somehow, making its description consistent, BUT the other spells become outdated, as they increase the affected spell by 1 magnitude. The description on WR reads:

«The range of the targeted spell increases by one category. You may not affect a single spell more than once with this spell, and the targeted spell must be at least one magnitude lower in level than this spell**. There are ten versions of Wizard’s Reach, one for each Form».

Instead, my thought is that it should read as follow to be consistent after the errata:

«The range of the targeted spell increases by one category. You may not affect a single spell more than once with this spell, and the targeted spell must be at least two magnitudes lower in level than this spell. There are ten versions of Wizard’s Reach, one for each Form».

This takes into account that WR is R: Voice (+2 magnitudes) while WB is R: Touch (+1 magnitude).

As currently none of the spells have changed its description, in my opinion they should be updated to the last errata – at least WR, which is the one included in the AMDE book.

I don’t think that using the wording “spell level” on the guide description need any change or (should) adds more complexity, as any other guideline uses the same terminology (InIm, any ReFo, any other General Vim guideline). Instead, the description of individual spells should be adapted to the parameters used and the level dedicated to the base effect, as any other spell of any other Form. The same case is for any other general spell, such as Demon’s Eternal Oblivion, if a player reinvents it with R: Sight instead of Voice: an increase in the final level of the spell due to a different parameter doesn't reduce the base level of the effect.

«The problem under the old rules was MuVi 10 getting you a level 15 spell, which is metaphysically wrong even if not a major game balance issue.»

David, I understand your explanation of why a target spell should not increase its final level beyond the MuVi base level makes, but personally believe that its born from the necessity to make fit WB with the rules, instead to change WB (as you have stated in the past on this forum), causing a cascade effect which implies erratum on the other spells.

It’s hard to debate the metaphysics of magic with the brain and soul behind Ars Magica, so I’m not going to take that path. Instead, I’m confident to walk the balance one. I think that the need to cast two different spells, the Concentration roll, and the possibility to botch them both if the Concentration roll botches is a good weight on the other dish of the scales. Also, it will be now challenging to use the «total change» guideline’s increment of +2 magnitudes, effectively capping the level of the target spell at level 15 if a MuVi ritual spell is avoided and only usable on your own spells:

  • Target spell level 15 +2 magnitudes after MuVi = final level 25.
  • A base level 45 allow to change a spell of less than or equal to half the (level +1 magnitude) of the Vim spell.
  • Thus, the MuVi spell needs to be level 50 (Base 45, +1 Touch).

This also banish any possibility to use a Creo requisite to make a greater change, as this requisite implies an additional magnitude (for example, adding +3 magnitudes to an InVi magic investigation spell to collect more information, as the Technique, Form and sigil of the caster, as per quaesitorial magic guides, or +3 magnitudes to know Te+Fo and an idea of the effect if it’s hermetic).

Making a specialist capable of this feat with a spontaneous MuVi spell sounds like a real live ordeal.

Finally, one last request concerning the use of MuVi on Ritual spells.

«If the parameters of an effect after it has been changed by a Muto Vim spell would normally require a Ritual, then at least one of the original spell and the Muto Vim spell must be a Ritual. For example, a Formulaic or Spontaneous Muto Vim effect on a Formulaic spell cannot produce an effect that would normally require a Ritual»

At the start of this paragraph it’s implied that only changing the parameters to Annual or Boundary (as the pre-erratum WB description said) will require a MuVi Ritual spell, while the last sentence does not refer to the parameters, but to an effect that would require a Ritual (a D: Mom T: Ind level 55 spell, for example).

Can you clarify if the intention is to avoid using “superficial changes” to affect Rituals? I’m imagining a MuVi 25 spell (base 15, +2 Voice) changing a CrAn 25 (base 15, +1 Touch, +1 Size) that creates a cow to create a pig instead.

Also, I've never really understood how can a spell be of level 16 or 19, if any magnitude beyond the 5th level adds in multiples of 5 levels. It's possible on enchanted items, due to other characteristics (number of uses, penetration levels, special triggers...), but in formulaic or spontaneous spells...?

Unfortunately, I am also of the opinion that it is too late to make the necessary changes to be included in the book. Hopefully, a healthy debate can bring an official stand in order to set this kind of issues for any future product, being it from Atlas of from any independent author.

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Wizard's Boost can affect spells up to the level of the Wizard's Boost. It is consistent with Wizard's Reach, but it cannot raise them past the level of the Wizard's Boost (and neither can Wizard's Reach). For comparison, Wizard's Debuff, which reduces the power of a spell by 5 levels, would work on spells up to the level of the WD, and have full effect, and Wizard's Closeness, dropping Range by one level, would only work on spells up to one magnitude lower than the spell. There are two rules in effect here, but they are applied consistently. (With the proposed change.)

The rule is that you must not increase past the level of the MuVi spell. Suppose that is 50 (Touch Range). That allows you to add two magnitudes to a level 25 spell, which raises the level of the spell to 35. That is still less than 50, so no problem. I am happy with the non-Ritual limit for boosting your own spells being 25.

That is certainly not a "superficial change". It changes the primary effect of the spell, which is explicitly ruled out.

Oh, you can do that. It's only when you try to debate authorial intent with me that you end up feeling a right pillock. (Northern English dialect, and I don't even know whether it is still current. But I'm sure you can guess the general meaning from context…)

Obviously the whole point of the discussion is only an issue when raising levels, not when dropping them (or staying the same). The rule is (from the last errata and manuscript, also the one starting this thread): "An increase in power or parameters may not raise the level of the target spell above the guideline level used for the Muto Vim spell." Guideline level is not the same as spell level.

This is why Wizard's Reach cannot increase the target spell past the [(guideline level +1 magnitude) - 2 magnitudes (due to R:Voice)], so the target spell should be at least 2 magnitudes lower to be affected by the MuVi and raised up to [MuVi spell level - 1 magnitude].

It's rude, but I don't feel that way yet.
It has become clear what the authorial intent of the rule was, but that's not how it's written.

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Ok if it is the guideline level, that adds math.

If it is the spell level, that encourages making everything vision range.

The easiest fix is that a Magus acts on their own spells at personal range. That, I think, makes guideline level = spell level.

The issue then becomes changing level to reduce range.

You have won that argument. I am proposing a change to:

It sounds as though you would also be happy with that.

No, it doesn't, because you can only raise the level of the spell by five levels. You don't need more than Reach Range for anything to guarantee that the spell is at least five levels higher than the highest level spell it can affect.

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I think my issue is that if it is spell level, then why not add in the most capabilities possible.

For example a level 25 spell with personal range and a bunch of "bonusing" in the effect gives the same outcome as a level 25 spell with vision range and less bonusing in the effect. So why not use the vision level spell in case you ever want to boost somebody else's spell (for example to make a non lethal effect lethal). Both the personal and vision range spells have exactly the same utility.

No, they don't, because the Sight Range spell is based on a guideline 3 magnitudes lower, and so cannot affect a lot of spells that the Touch Range version can.

It makes more sense for the default parameters of the spell to be such that you can simply look at the level and know if it is going to work (is at least 5 higher than the spell being modified).

Honestly, why not just make it default MuVi spell level = spell level beings cast. That would establish a magnitude as a doubling of magical power, so two spells of equal level should produce the same result as one spell five levels higher.

From my side, it has never been a matter of who won this argument (which should have been a discussion), but to bring awareness of an errata before printing a $150 book. In some way, it was the intention to release the manuscript asap.

As you brought up the subject, I should have liked it more as it was before de erratum and instead correcting the description of Wizard's Boost, but I appreciate the effort to solve that issue. Thanks for taking care of my concerns.

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