MuVi makes spontaneous magic fail

p.159 of the core rule book, 2nd paragraph of the MuVi box.

It states that MuVi cannot be used on spont magic because such attempts would make the spell caster lose control of his spont spell but what if that is the exact intent

Butterfly Effect MuVi 15 - R:Voice D: Conc T: Ind. Base: 10 (Superficially change an effect of 2x (Lvl+1)
Cast toward a spell caster attempting to cast a spontaneous effect, the spontaneous caster is at grave risk of losing control of his magic. The caster of this spell, can only hope to affect an effect of level 10 or less if, while fast casting (-10), he beats the penetration total of the spontaneous spell. If successful, the caster of the spontaneous effect loses control of his effect and must immediately roll for a botch with extra botch dice equal to the magnitude of his attempted effect.

W

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Quoting the rulebook here: "These meta-magical spells have certain special restrictions, which apply to all Muto Vim spells invented according to Hermetic theory. First of all, they cannot be cast on spontaneous spells. Such magic is being manipulated at whim — any attempt to alter it further would make the caster lose control. (This is necessary for game balance.)"

What you wrote is a pretty creative take on this restriction. I could see some storytellers allow you to make a Muto Vim spell destabilizer spell. I'm of the school more likely to pay attention to the parts I chose to italicize, partly because I dislike the idea of Muto Vim being as efficient as Perdo Vim for the purpose of countering spontaneous magic, with the added side effect of possibly triggering twilight from botch dices, which looks like Perdo(Creo)Vim on steroids. If I decided to allow it, it would probably make it a risky endeavour, and the spell would look like this:

Butterfly Effect MuVi 15 - R:Voice D: Conc T: Ind. Base: 10 (Superficially change an effect of 2x (Lvl+1)
Cast toward a spell caster attempting to cast a spontaneous effect, the spontaneous caster is at grave risk of losing control of his magic. The caster of this spell, can only hope to affect an effect of level 10 or less if, while fast casting (-10), he beats the penetration total of the spontaneous spell. If successful, the caster of the spontaneous effect loses control of his effect and must immediately roll for a botch with extra botch dice equal to the magnitude of his attempted effect. The out of control magic may end up being of a random TechForm cast on a random valid target with a Voice range of the spontaneous caster which may include the spontaneous caster and the caster of the Butterfly effect. If the spontaneous caster botches and suffers warping, the caster of the Butterfly effect gains an equivalent number of warping points.

If the player wanted something that wasn't as risky for him as the spontaneous caster, I would probably point him towards original research guidelines (but I wouldn't make it a very hard breakthrough).

Fair points but note that the effect is not really in competition with PeVi as the PeVi effect takes place before the casting when used like Aegis, or a regular effect to lower casting total or after the casting and targets the effect & dispels it.

It is more in competition with fast cast counter spelling but is not as good as it has the added requirement to beat the penetration total which is not a given as the MuVi effect tends to be of higher level than the effect it is trying to set astray.

PeVi I still find to be more effective and easier to use but my character has a Perdo defiency hence the "Creative" efforts :innocent:

I like to make it dangerous, will probably generate reputations which can be interesting to play but it would be a lot of resources to invest in order to make it work. Minimum of lvl 1 mastery in fast cast & probably need to have a few different levels to tailor penetration... all that to stop a spontaneous spell coming my way...

Spontaneous counter-spelling would be the way to go but Mercurian magic blocks that out too.

W

I don't want to come out as shooting down your effort, either way. My first reaction was more along the line of "Novel idea". I just don't know that it matches RAW or is balanced, even if you make a fair point about needing penetration. I'll let others weigh in. :wink:

And yes, I hear you out about Mercurian Magic. There are a couple fast cast formulaic options that can be handy in a lot of cases, for example a fast-cast teleport, a fast-cast wall, or a fast-cast dispel (although yeah, deficient perdo is what it is).

The spell seems nice. I think as written, Butterfly Effect can be marginally more powerful than a PeVi spell, for dispelling during conjuration, since it has no restriction on Form... but not by much. Let's compare it with Unraveling the Fabric of (Form) and with a T:Individual version of WoMS. I'm also making BE D:Mom for this (it really doesn't need to be Conc for the intended effect). I won't bother with BE needing to penetrate. Since spontaneous spells tend to have pretty low penetration anyway, this is unlikely to have much weight. Also, in this situation we are comparing their effectiveness in fast-casting against sponted spells, so I think the -10 penalty don't need to be factored in the calculations (it applies to all of them).

  • UF(F): cancels spell level + 2 mag + stress die.
  • WoMS: cancels 1/2 (spell level + 2mag + stress die).
  • BE: disrupts 2*spell level - 2 mag

For a lvl 15 spell, UF(F) can dispel a lvl 25~35 spell (average 30) of a specific form, WoMS can dispel a lvl 12~18 spell of any form. In comparison, BE can disrupt any sponted (and only sponted) spell up to lvl 20. It is a bit strong... but since it only works against sponted it might be barely ok (I'd playtest this, maybe I'm off in my analysis about how strong this effect is).

Personally, I think it makes sense for it to be form-specific (Butterfly Effect of (Form)), or to raise the guideline to "Significantly change a spell...", which would result into "disrupts lvl -1mag" for R:voice. Probably the later, since I consider a disruption that stops casting a significant change in the spell (I think "superficially change..." shouldn't be enough to disrupt the original casting).

Also, I personally like the idea that this spell can trigger a botch, but maybe not of it always warping the spontcaster. What about:

Butterfly Effect MuVi Gen - R:Voice D: Mom T: Ind.
Cast on a spontaneous effect as it is being cast, this disrupts the other spell, making the caster lose control if the spell's level is lower than (level -5) of the Butterfly Effect spell. The spell fails and the spontaneous caster must make a concentration roll. If he fails he must roll as if he had botched, with extra botch dice equal to the magnitude of his attempted effect. He only receives warping points if he botched his concentration roll.

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It's a nice idea, however, should it be PeVi, not MuVi?

The moment the mutation is doing nothing but causing a destructive effect, it's no longer muto.

I don't think that is set in stone. Think about using MuTe on a supporting wall (changing it to mud) to make a house go down. I see it as roughly the same thing.

But thinking a bit more, there are a few points that beget examination, regarding the metaphysical behavior of magic. Such as, is Butterfly Effect needed at all? Can't I achieve this disruptive effect by using Mirror of Opposition or Wizard's Fork on a spontaneous spell?

My biggest problem is “How do you know it’s a spontaneous spell and not someone’s formulaic spell?” Because if it is a formulaic spell then it does not have the desired effect and whether a spell is being cast formulaically or spontaneously is not actually information you gain with the awareness roll, is it?

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