MuVi spell - Reflecting spell?

Hi all,

I have designed a new spell for my saga, but I assume such an idea has been handled before somewhere on these boards. Just looking to get feedback on if the design is right.

Reflecting the Thaumaturgical Threat
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
MuVi General
This spell changes the target of a spell cast, directing it back at its original caster. It can effect a single spell, and will reflect a spell if you roll SD + (Level-5) exceeds twice the level of the opposing spell. You must also beat the original spells penetration score to effect it. To use the spell, it must be fast casted in response to the original spell.
(Base, +2 Voice)

It wasnt clear whether all MuVi spells need to be designed for specific forms, so I referenced the PeVi guidelines, and an "all forms dispel" has the divide in 2 part, so I included that in the spells function.

Is this right?



As for Form-specific or not, the book is not very clear. The best pattern I've fit to it so far is that if the MuVi spell changes a significant parameter (Technique, Form, Range, Duration, Target), then it must be form specific. Otherwise it does not need to be. So if you're changing a sigil, there is no need. I would need to double-check my books to see where guidelines fall, but I think that would be under the former. Based on that I would say you are correct in not making it Form-specific.


Something I don't understand - why would the Muto Vim spell need to beat the original spell's penetration?

I can see why you might rule that the caster of the MuVi spell needed to get a higher penetration total on his spell than the original caster did on his (although I don't see the need for doing so), but not why it would need to be of a higher level itself.

Otherwise, it seems Ok to me (without bothering to check the books myself. Nobles' Parma?)

4th paragraph in the MuVi box in the core rulebook, page 159: "In addition, your Penetration total for the Muto Vim spell must beat the other magus’s Penetration total for the spell to be changed, unless you are cooperating."

Thank you, Emirikol.

So the wording of Kal's spell needs to be clearer - it's not the spell level of the MuVi spell that needs to beat the original spell's penetration, which is what confused me. Of course, if you know the rule here already, it is probably clear to you anyway.

Change "You must also beat the original spells penetration score to effect it"
To "Your penetration total must also beat the original spell's penetration total to affect it"

Apostrophe, affect/effect and total vs score. Isn't English grammar fun?!?

By the way, does this rule make much difference?
Has anyone allowed Muto Vim spells of sufficient level to affect incoming spells without needing to beat there penetration totals?
If so, does it make Muto Vim too strong? (MuVi spells in this context already need to be fast-cast anyway.)


Sometimes, it can make for massive difference yes.
I say its very much for the better to need to beat the penetration.

Oh very! Try Japanese grammar if you ever get bored with it... :mrgreen:

From the number of MuVi spells that aren't Form specific, it's obviously not necessary for all of them. However, it's never been clear to me when it is necessary.

Probably not necessary.

I thought that it made sense to need double the level for a general spell that affects any form: otherwise, this would be the best way to defend against any spells. "I don't need to work out what form the incoming spell is, I'll just use my Reflecting the Thaumaturgical Threat as usual"
Much easier than dispelling it, or countering it by normal fast-cast spontaneous spell.

Plus, would you then only need half the incoming spell's level on eg a MuIg reflect spell to reflect solely ignem spells?



I've had a magus who did indeed have this very spell and he found it useful, albeit in very particular circumstances.

Due to the double-the-spell-level rule, it only works on low level spells, however, in mage combat, this is generally the kind used, since lower level spell = higher penetration. so the trick usually becomes beating the penetration. This is usually only possible if (assuming a reasonably competent enemy) you have mastered the spell with the penetration ability and have selected Vim as a specialiaty for your penetration score.

Failing that, its an absolutely cracking spell when facing off against an inferior foe. Instead of simply annihilating ones foe with your most deadly mage killing spell, you deflect every spell they cast, forcing its effects upon them instead. Classy way of defeating someone.

One could argue that "deflecting", ie changing target, is the domain of Rego and not Muto.

Yeah, however.
It's fairly explicitly given as a MuVi guideline. shrug

For your ease, the guidelines:

Only the Target is changeable by guidelines. Thus, tell me which guideline you use?
And you know why? because the target is not something of the spell, but a localisation, according to A&A; and localisations fall under Rego.

Funny thing is, I actually agree with you.

Ah okay :blush:

Sorry, didn't catch it was not sarcasm or something like ironic :wink:

Depends on your definition of 'better'. With Fast-Cast defenses against spells, you don't have to invent/learn and master at least one new spell for each Form. 20+ seasons spent on anything is pretty serious dedication.

Speaking of fast-cast defenses: "In general, a fast-cast defense with half the level of the attacking spell is enough to protect the maga herself or one other individual."

WTF? How is that figured, with respect to the guidelines, or is it something unique to fast-cast defenses?

As best I can tell, it's a legacy remnant. And yes, it defies guidelnes in many cases.

It's an inaccurate sentence, as it let's think that, maybe, a wall of stone can protect against a BoAF.