Imposing the Natural Design (Terram) MuVi 30 Ritual R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
You cast this spell on another spell of a level less or equal than level 50. The primary effect does not change in any way except that it will remain permanently. The voice range allows the caster to cooperate with other magi’s effects. The Terram version allows effects like WALL OF PROTECTING STONE, SILVERY SCALES OF THE KNIGHT, A SIMPLE METHOD FOR RAPID VALLATION, etc. to remain permanently. Once the original duration expires, the primary effect becomes completely natural.
(Base 2x(Level +1): Superficially change a spell of less than or equal to twice the (level + 1 magnitude) of the Vim spell. This may not change the primary effect of the spell, or its power, + 2 Voice)
Not sure... I may have found another semi-useful effect that uses the MuVi Superficially change. It does not change the primary effect nor does it change the target or power...
Since Hermetic magic is not capable of permanent Muto effects, I would definitely agree that breaking a Hermetic Limit by making Muto effects permanent is anything but "superficial." Particularly since that ritual is itself a Muto effect... that can't be permanent.
Apparently making Muto permanent is a no-no; but you might do something similar with MuVi with a Creo requisite. In this case you are changing the original spell into a Creo ritual of momentary duration -- but that probably is more than a 'superficial change'.
It doesn't pass mine. A D: Mom Muto spell (Ritual or not) by ArM5 p.112 Momentary does not provide a permanent effect impossible to dispel, but one that just dissipates after a moment.
You can, however, quite simply design and create an Enchanted Item that operates continuously and - while worn or carried - enacts a Muto effect. No problem with that. Of course, both effect and item can be dispelled - and the item be destroyed as well.
No Muto effect can be permanent. And no Muto Vim effect can make a spell permanent, and even less with the lowest, superficial base. It doesn't pass my test, sorry. I would say it doesn't even work RAW.
I think the description might not be doing justice to the effect I'm trying to sell.
1 - This is akin to a Wizard boost effect that does not increase the power of the effect.
2 - This Muto effect does not make anything permanent. It changes the primary Creo effect.
3 - Primary and final effect needs to be something that can be designed, within hermetic limits, as a ritual that can create natural things (Gold, Horses, Corpses, etc.)
4 - Ritual Creo spells with Momentary duration create things that last as any other thing of that type. The magic is gone in a moment and so cannot be dispelled. This also applies to ritual healing spells.
From the errata MuVi guideline we have: "Muto Vim Guidelines (p. 159): Add the following paragraph immediately before the paragraph about botches. "If the parameters of an effect after it has been changed by a Muto Vim spell would normally require a Ritual, then at least one of the original spell and the Muto Vim spell must be a Ritual. For example, a Formulaic or Spontaneous Muto Vim effect on a Formulaic spell cannot produce an effect that would normally require a Ritual."
The only issue with the effect I find is that in some cases, it would save some vis use which not aligned with the metaphysics of the game. I think if add the following then it would fit RAW & Meta stuff.
Imposing The Natural Design (Terram) MuVi 30 Ritual R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
You cast this spell on another spell of a level less or equal than level 50 that is of the Creo Technique & Terram Form. The primary effect does not change in any way except that it will remain permanently. The voice range allows the caster to cooperate with other magi’s effects. The Terram version allows effects like WALL OF PROTECTING STONE, SILVERY SCALES OF THE KNIGHT, A SIMPLE METHOD FOR RAPID VALLATION, etc. to remain permanently. Once the original duration expires, the primary effect becomes completely natural. Ritual consume MuVi vis but if the primary effect is of greater magnitude, then you need to supplement the MuVi ritual to match the higher magnitude. If the primary effect had non-natural side effects such as Gold created was glowing, those are lost once the primary effect duration ends.
(Base 2x(Level +1): Superficially change a spell of less than or equal to twice the (level + 1 magnitude) of the Vim spell. This may not change the primary effect of the spell, or its power, + 2 Voice)
I'd agree with other people that this isn't a superficial change to the spell - it's a material change to what it does. I also don't think it would be possible to have a spell be unnatural for a while and then turn natural after the initial duration ended - it would be an all or nothing thing.
Examples of what I'd consider "superficial" include changing the sigil or changing it to be better fitted to a particular person so it doesn't warp them, i.e. the spell still does exactly what it did before just some of the secondary characteristics have changed slightly.
I think it's clearer now what you are trying to do. The first post alone wasn't as clear.
However, you're changing a formulaic, non-ritual spell into a ritual, non-formulaic spell. So you're entirely changing the type of spell involved to get a drastically different effect out of the Duration, something not at all possible for the original spell. That doesn't sound like something "superficial" to me.
In 4th edition it was part of Magic theory basics as in all spells could benefit from vis to extend duration but I understand that some might consider the change a significant change for 5th ed.
Still, as per RAW, we are not changing the primary effect nor the power so strictly speaking it fits into superficial.
Aint Ritual effects considered formulaic? And can't any effect be designed as a ritual even if it does not require it?
What I'm trying to get to is that rituals are simply formulaic effect that can ingest vis.
Corebook p81 "Ritual spells are like Formulaic spells, but they take longer to cast, and involve both elaborate rituals and the expenditure of raw vis."
All of which are covered by having the MuVi Ritual (longer time to cast, elaborate rituals & Expenditure of raw vis).
Rituals spells are not Formulaic spells. Formulaic spells are not Ritual spells.
You can of course invent a spell as a Ritual spell even when it does not have to be a Ritual spell. There is almost never any good reason to do so, but it can be done.
Effects themselves are not ritual effects or formulaic effects, though some effects require a Ritual spell.
Vis can be added to all sorts of spell-casting. That doesn't make the spells rituals.
The fact that the MuVi change the duration of the spell from Dia/Sun/Conc (whatever is the original duration of the targeted spell) to Mom, is in itself not superficial.
So when permanency is added to the mix, it is beyond superficial change.
Assuming that such spell exist with the appropriate base line, it will bring the interesting issue of which vis to use ? the MuVi ritual would requires Muto or Vim vis, but if it is affecting a CrTe spell, then you would be using not relevant vis to turn a spell into a ritual ?
There is many layers of complexity to untangle.
Actually, we might not need to do that. Primary "Magical" duration can remain I think. During that time, the effect could be dispelled as it has not settled fully. This is just spell design but it could be a requirement to keep the MuVi effect "Superficial".
This is the sole effect of the effect. Unless you consider having the extra non-natural effects fading away as something else but I don't think it is.
To have a "permanent" effect you need a Creo Ritual with Momentary duration. So no, you can't keep the original duration.
You also can't change an object from being magical to being natural. So to create a natural object which will remain after the magic is gone, it needs to be created as a natural object.
Corebook p.112 - "If a spell with a momentary effect, such as healing a wound, creating a fire, or opening a pit, is cast with a longer duration, it generally sustains that effect for the duration, rather than having its effect multiple times within the duration."
I would pose that a Ritual Cr effect could have a duration longer than momentary and be designed so that it's natural permanency occurs at the end of said duration. Stating otherwise would create a new hermetic limit. Of course, there are not many applications for such effects which explains the lack of examples.
An exemple could be that we design the CrAn35 The Wizards Mount as a ritual of Sun duration. The horse would remain gift friendly till the end of the duration & then simply become a normal, non-magical, mount that is impacted, as normal, by the gift. Not the best use of Vis but I don't see a hermetic limit that would prevent the effect to be designed this way or any rules being broken.
If you continue reading where your quote ended, it says that
"Thus, a wound healed with duration Sun
stays healed for that length of time, and reap-
pears at the end."
So such effects end when the duration ends.
Later on the same page we find the following:
"Ritual Creo spells with Momentary dura-
tion create things that last as any other thing of
that type. The magic is gone in a moment and
so cannot be dispelled. This also applies to rit-
ual healing spells."
This is clearly an exception from how spells normally work. There is nothing to suggest that any type of spell other than a Momentary Creo Ritual can create lasting objects.
It doesn't become permanent just because it is a ritual. It has to be a Momentary Creo Ritual.
An object created with a duration is maintained by magic, and is thus not a natural object. When the magic ends, it ceases to exist since it was maintained by magic.
I suspect you might be right but do you have the rule that states it has to be a Momentary Creo Ritual & not just that Momentary Creo Rituals can be permanent?
Personally, I don't see why rules would not allow Cr rituals that have a duration become permanent natural things at the end of said duration...
Besides, even if one might argue about what non-Momentary Creo Rituals can do, there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that changing a Formulaic spell into an effect that requires a Ritual spell could ever be considered a Superficial change. It is far too big a change to be merely superficial.
