I'm starting to get the feeling people write books so they can put their house rules in them and call them RAW.
Gee... so you think the authors of the rulebooks for the game decide which rules they like best, and that they think suit the playstyle they go for best, then they write books about it, submit them to the line editor and the playtest teams to be looked over? Yes, that sounds pretty accurate to how it works. The difference between RAW and a house rule is the fact that it's in a book and the person who came up with it first had to get it cleared by David Chart. That's the ONLY real difference between the two options.
At the same time it seems that the bar for getting things cleared may be (IMHO) a bit low when a previous caveat like what I sited which is several paragraphs long is simply overlooked in a further supplement building on those same rules. If a mystery cult just means "any old organization" the why have mystery cults at all? The point is that historically there were mystery cults, and the rules gave you something to make them interesting, which the new revision completely destroys by removing the mystery aspect entirely.
This I agree with.
Well, to be fair - we're seeing Mythic Europe from the perspective of the Order of Hermes, which functionally is the modern inheritors of the Cult of Mercury - this was my Interpretation before LoH came out. Therefore, the 'mysteries' of the Cult of Hermes (as it were) are all laid out in the core rulebook. And even in a number of books, there are references to "public" mystery cults - those everyone knows about, and are quite open about their Initiations - to the point where they make up a third of the Houses of the Order.
So when I looked at the Mystery Cult initiation rules, I saw a game mechanic for teaching virtues, with some mystic trappings. In-game, this game mechanic is used by mystery cults, but it is not technically necessary. I think this is what the LoH ruling is: making that observation explicit.
In thinking about it, I'd rule that the "curious common magics" of TMRE (pg. 25) could be initiated by anyone who chose to, using Hermetic Lore.
Considering that a memory palace is a technique used by people in both the middle ages and the modern world I don't think it reallt deserves to be an initiated supernatural virtue.
The book agrees with you: "The ability may be taught or studied during play as a normal Ability, or acquired during creation by any character with access to Academic abilities. (TMRE, pg. 25)."
As the section on Common magics says, "These Virtues are available to all within the Order of Hermes without Initiation..." However, it doesn't then go on to say how one WOULD learn the virtues, as the only way to learn virtues currently (aside from those that have skills associated with them) is THROUGH Initiation scripts. Thus my comment about using Order of Hermes lore as the Organization Lore to self-initiate. It's the same variation of "being in a cult without being in a cult" idea.
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If so, why did she have to invent a new lore? Why didn't she use OoH Lore?
The only reason she would have invented a new lore is if using OoH Lore doesn't work.
I disagree.
I can find nothing in either TMRE or LoH that indicates that every organisation lore is a mystery cult lore. And you need a mystery cult lore to do an initiation.
Indeed, I just found, on page 50 of LoH:
That pretty firmly settles the issue. It's troupe approval, and the troupe should never approve any group that doesn't have some mystical slant to it.
The OoH is very deliberately scientific, not mystical, and is thus an inappropriate (Mystery Cul) Lore.
Because this entire conversation is predicated on "hey, if we wanted to use the Initiation rules to structure various different things about the Order, how would we plausibly go about doing it?" It's a thought experiment.
As to why she didn't use Order of Hermes lore? Because they didn't contain the relevant specific ceremonies, or because it was easier to start from scratch. Or because she didn't have OoH Lore. Or it didn't occur to her. Or because the rules for adapting cult scripts require that you know both your own and the other cult (pg. 49). Or she didn't get around to it before she died.
The basic rules seem to be "Learn the new Cult Lore, then adapt the relevant Scripts to your own Cult lore."
EDIT - there are a number of places in the canon that suggest a more effective route than the default presented: learning Latin through Immersion, rather than exposure, during character creation, for example. The question isn't whether or not she SHOULD have - rather, whether or not she COULD have, with the tools presented.
I quoted the exact same section in my discussion above, and came to the opposite conclusion. It certainly looks mystical to me - what with people communing with gods, summoning angels, and falling into alternate dimensions of mystic insight, and whatnot.
Given as the OoH as a whole has basically no mystical ceremonies: of course they didn't have relevant ceremonies.
They don't have relevant ceremonies for anything because they don't have ceremonies. Which seems to rule them out as a mystical cult.
Going from a mechanical point of view, that doesn't work.
Why does that make it impossible to use the most convenient Lore?
A member of the order who had no access to OoH Lore? Not exactly plausible
Again, she's a member of the order.
Why not start with it?
Only those in mystery cults.
Hmmm, I think there's a mystery cult that views that from a mystical viewpoint... while most of the order seem to view it as an annoying hazard.
Can you give an example of a cult ritual that the Order engage in? Of a mystical, unproven, belief that they all share? Of the mindset that defines all members of the Order?
You could easily make a version of the order that was a mystery cult. But it wouldn't look like the current Ars Magica, what with the fact that all members of the order then have to share certain metaphysical beliefs, they have fixed initiation rites (rather than a gauntlet set by their parens), Lore (OoH) wouldn't be about people any more it'd be primarily about the beliefs of the order, etc.
Kingreaper: While I had a fairly lengthy write-up to your response, I realized that we were arguing at cross-purposes. My intent here is not to show that the Order of Hermes IS a mystery cult; rather, that it's plausible to use Hermetic Lore and the Initiation rules as written.
As such, your remarks about how Fortunata didn't use Hermetic Lore as the basis for her own MC are not particularly relevant. Of course she didn't. That's not the point. My point is that it's possible that, from a game mechanic perspective, that she could have. There are inconsistencies in the rules - sometimes deliberate, sometimes for simplicity, sometimes due to error. I'm not addressing that. I'm mainly arguing that it's POSSIBLE, with the RAW, to use Hermetic lore to integrate MC scripts. As such - I'm not going to address those points. I do not consider them relevant to the discussion.
That being said: your claim that the Order is not a mystic organization is, to my mind, incorrect. Of course it's a mystic organization. The RoP:M book is fairly clear on how magic works - and part of that is that magic is mysterious/occult/mystical.
Now, I do agree that Bonisagus attempted to strip out as much irrelevant mystery as possible when he put together his Magic Theory - however, there comes a point where the fact that the Order is dealing with MAGIC ends up necessitating that there be at least a little mysticism.
To your specifics: the Order, as a mystical magical organization, has a number of ceremonies and rituals. They are described on pg. 81 and 83 of the core rulebook. A common, unverified, mystic ritual (ie, that the Order doesn't really understand, but does anyway) is described on pg. 161. There are also a number of rituals the heads of the Order perform on a regular basis - one of which is described on GotF, pg. 61-62 (Fane of the Founders). The rituals for interacting with gods are described on TMRE, pg. 81 - and while the MC that grants the relevant virtue makes them better at it, the rules specifically state the virtue is not required. Similar rituals exist for interacting with angels, devils, and the fae, and are used regularly throughout the Order.
Just because they have numbers and rules attached to them doesn't make it any less a mystical ritual in-game. It just makes it easier for us as players to comprehend them.
All members of the order DO share metaphysical beliefs. It's called Bonisagus' Magic Theory. There is a fixed Initation Rite: it's called Opening the Gift. And Hermetic Lore IS about the beliefs of the order, as well as the people. (There is no "Hermetic Lore" in the core rulebook. It's an instance of Organization Lore, as defined on pg. 66.)
EDIT II - that being said, yes: Hermetic Lore is used more often for people, places, and history, rather than ritual and law. The Order has a specialized skills for those: Magic Theory, and Hermetic Code. That doesn't mean they don't exist.
EDIT - however, that doesn't matter: for the purposes of this discussion, my only claim is that the Order of Hermes is mystic ENOUGH to be able to integrate other MC scripts. That's all. The description of Fortunata's work pretty much says "you don't need to be a part of a mystery cult to use the initiation rules" - you just need to be mystical enough to be able to adapt what you know to the initiation specified. You then adapt the rituals you know from your own Org. in such a fashion that it produces the desired outcome. As by themselves, your own Org's rituals may not actually be doing anything. The whole point of a Script is that it provides the numbered process of rituals to get the virtue - not just the rituals themselves, which is assumed you already know via Org Lore.
And just to be clear: out here in the real world, Magic and Religion are two sides of the same coin - it's the same difference between Engineering and Physics. (Magic/Engineering is the applied practice, while Religion/Physics is the general framework.)
In the world of Ars Magica, Magic Theory is a mix between physics and theology. It is, however, a metaphysic, as it strives to explain and predict the behavior of that which is beyond the physical world, and in many ways can be considered the Applied Theology of the Magic realm.
We just tend to see the underlying game mechanics of it a lot.
The Ability "Organisation Lore: Organisation" is merely the knowledge of that organisation (see ArM5, page 66). It's what people mean when they say "institutional knowledge". The organisation could be a merchant guild, a monastic order, the church, the Order of Hermes, whatever. That an organisation has a lore does not imply anything supernatural.
However, some organisations are Mystery Cults. In this case, knowing about the organisation includes knowing about that organisation's mystery; hence why it helps with Mystery initiation. However, just because an organisation has a lore it doesn't mean that organisation is a Mystery Cult (or that it can become a Mystery Cult).
Finally, there are also some things that share (roughly) the game mechanics for Mystery initiation. This doesn't mean those actually are Mystery initiations, or that the organisation in question is a Mystery Cult. It is just for the convenience of the players that the game mechanic is duplicated.
Similar game mechanics don't imply any similarity between the in-character actions. For example, "Hunting a Stag" is an Ability roll made with the Hunt Ability, and "Preparing a Horoscope" is an Ability roll made with the Artes Liberales Ability. The similarity of the game mechanics aren't meant to imply that hunting and artes liberales are somehow similar.
You know the whole introduction of TMRE goes into this subject in detail. What a Mystery Cult is. How Hermetic Magic developed from them. How the order really isn't a Mystery Cult now even though various different cults exist within it.
To Sum up my understanding of it. Each Mystery cult has it's own unique view of the world believing their magic to be descended from Ancient powerful magics. This Magical knowledge takes the form of a mythical past practitioners emulate through ritualized practices. In game those philosophical views, myths and practices are transmitted through each cults Lore ability and collection of initiatory rituals.
Each cult has it's own philosophy and mythology. Still it's possible for cults to steal each others magic by acquiring another cult's scripts but they have to translate them to work with their own lore. In my mind it's probably an actual case of translating. Taking one cult's symbolism as allegory for your own cult's myths.
"Hmm there talking about that golden snake thing again. Must be the Fiery Wheel of Life."
Bonisagus created a system of magic "Hermetically" separated from any particular "Lore" As the book says...
So for me OoH Lore doesn't contain much in the way of philosophical and mythical elements to attach meaning to. Instead since the order has Hermetic Theory which allows new mystical knowledge to be incorporated through research it's organization Lore is much more historical then mythological.
What Fortunata did was create her own philosophy that she could then translate other cults knowledge to. This is an option specifically allowed by TMRE (side bar pg 11).
I would probably rule trying to use OoH Lore as a Mystery Cult Lore would qualify as creating an entirely new skill.
Richard - yes. Mainly we're discussing whether or not Hermetic Lore is mystic enough so that it has enough rituals (likely based out of the Cult of Mercury) so that someone could come along and use it in the same manner as a Mystery Cult.
A slightly more nuanced version of my argument is that Magic Theory is the specialized Institutional knowledge that would contain all of the relevant rituals; alternately, they exist somewhere suspended in the TeFo abilities somewhere. (Ie, the difference between the Profession: Physicist skill and Science: Physics) - in some game systems, the former is enough. In more granular ones, the latter is also required.
Kevin: I'm getting a bit unclear about what you're arguing by now.
If your argument is that the OoH could be re-envisioned as a Mystery Cult, and we wouldn't even have to invent a new Mystery Cult Lore, because we already have Organization Lore: Order of Hermes, then yes, you're absolutely right.
But if that isn't the extent of your point, I've kinda lost you here.
EDIT:
If this is the extent of your point, then the answer is simple:
It is currently not. But we could re-envision the OoH to be structured like that.
It would just require re-writing a few books and spreading this new idea of how the OoH works across the fanbase.
Great idea for a saga though.
Sure - mainly we're discussion whether or not the Order is mystic ENOUGH (ie, it has enough shared myths and rituals in common with other mystery cults) that one could use OOH Lore as part of an Initiation script. I fully concede that it's not actually a Mystery Cult.
I am, however, arguing that it's plausible that there is enough (Remanants from the Cult of Mercury, most likely) that OOH Lore could be used in a similar fashion.
Well, according to Fortunata, in order to steal a ritual/script, the cult's mythologies have to more-or-less match up. As most of Mythic Europe's MC's come from the Greek/Roman tradition, this isn't an issue.
Hm. If that's the case, though - then Hermetic magic shouldn't have a problem with the Divine - I was under the impression that the issue with the Divine is that there still WAS elements of the pagan tradition in there: calling on Jupiter and pagan symbolism and whatnot; and that that's why "no gestures/incantations" is a requirement of Holy magic, and why you had to re-invent all your spells. It's not that the system is magical: it's that it's still actively pagan.
Huh - OK, not QUITE "it's all still pagan", but pretty close.
Well, I certainly agree that up to the Founders, it's pretty historical. Past that, though, I'd say it starts to drift into mythology and legend - simply because they were a bunch of individuals and/or Mystery Cults, and that's what they all brought with THEM.
I would certainly agree that it would require some sort of re-organization, as it seems from Fortunata's experience that the Org Lore ability has to be structured in such a way as to help guide the Initiate through the rituals - in effect, the Org Lore has to be written/learned in such a way so as to have an additional layer of meaning hidden in it.
Is the "someone" a player or a character?
Sure, a player can come along and devise some mechanic that uses Org. Lore: Order of Hermes in the same manner as a Mystery Cult (subject to troupe approval, etc).
In-character, no you can't do that, because it doesn't work like that. In-character you discover a Mystery somehow (via meditation, revelation by some supernatural being, contemplating arcane texts, or whatever), which reveals to you special secret knowledge about the way the universe (or some aspect of it) works. You then learn more about your Mystery, teach others, and discover ways to use your new understanding to improve/change your magic (i.e. initiate appropriate virtues). The appropriate Org. Lore to use is the one that is about the Mystery in question.
In-character, you don't learn of a Mystery, and then shop around for an organisation to shoe-horn the Mystery into. You can't use Org. Lore : Order of Hermes to initiate a mystery anymore than you can use Org. Lore: London Baker's Guild to initiate a mystery. That is, you can only use Org. Lore : Order of Hermes to initiate a Mystery if the Order of Hermes is a Mystery Cult (which it isn't in RAW) and even so, you can only use it to initiate the specific Mysteries that relate to that cult.
Hm. Well, to be fair, I have been known to drift in conversations such as this.
I think my last post (which, weirdly enough, matches up with my first post, although I think I drifted, then came back) is that OOH: Lore contains enough ritualistic elements from the Cult of Mercury (and other associated traditions) that one could fairly easily re-structure it in such a way as to use it for Initiation purposes, such as Fortunata did. Functionally, as Maine75Man mentioned, this may require that you re-build the OOH Lore skill in such a way that the Initiate paths are layered in there, while still retaining the practicalities, such as "Duremar is that big library in Germany".
Stepping back a bit, compared to other Org Lore skills, the Order of Hermes probably actually uses "Magic Theory + Hermetic Lore + Hermetic Code". The Order's rituals have been pulled out and been given their on extensible skill, in Magic Theory.
I think my main point, then, is that the Order does have enough ritualistic practices and mysticism and myth in its history that it could use its Org Lore as an Inititation Ability - but I do agree that the Ability, as currently taught, would probably need to be re-worked in order for that to actually succeed.
Really? Because that sounds exactly like what Fortunata was doing in LoH, on page pg. 50:
Nothing about the Org Lore having to be an in-game Mystery Cult: only that it be "mystic" enough to have a base of shared ancient knowledge with the other Org Lore. In Fortunata's case, that is Greek/Roman death cults - which sounds pretty close to the Order's own history as a Greek/Roman Mercurian cult.
Now - it sounds like you're DEFINING "mystic enough" as to whether the org lore is that of a Mystery Cult. I'm defining it as if, in-game, it has enough common ritual/myth/history to BE a Mystery Cult, if someone wanted to go and pluck through all the rituals and whatnot, and slap one together. My argument is that the Order is the latter - it's got enough history from the Cult of Mercury that, while it's not being used as a Mystery Cult, and doesn't have any initiation scripts built into it currently, it's entirely possibly that someone could (in-game) use it as a base for one.
EDIT - I would argue that Dominion Lore is one that could also be used - if not for Fortunata's, then for some Jewish or Christian-inspired Mystery Cults, at least.
However, it could be argued that Hermetic Lore is secularized enough that it would have to be re-organized and re-created, as Maine75Man suggested, using the rules portrayed on LoH pg. 49. I could agree with that, although I'd give pretty heavy study bonuses (ie, you could study a book on Hermetic Lore, and only take a slight penalty) in the process of doing so. And at the end, you'd end up with a Hermetic Cult Lore skill, which is as good as Hermetic Lore, but could ALSO be used to Initiate with.