Naive Question: Changing Vis

Is there a spell (presumably Muta Vim) that changes the type of Vis permanently/ If so, what is its magnitude. Obviously it is at least 20 since I presume it would be a momentary touch individual ritual spell?


Oh, heck NO! There is an Ancient Magic, which will let you do it, if you can get the Angel or Demon to teach you..... On a calmer level, it's not a big issue. Just talk to the Redcaps, they have a Vis bank, and will exchange what you have for what you need.

There was back in the third edition, but there is no longer. And it cannot return.
Specifically, it would violate the Hermetic Limit of Vis (top of 3rd column, p. 80 of ArM5).

Isn't that what Original Research is meant to do?

Not really.
It is a lesser limit, so perhaps it could be broken, but most research stays within the bonisagian limits of magic - even as they expand Hermetic Theory.

Well, since a Hermetic Breakthrough is described as creating a new Arcane Ability or breaking a Lesser Limit.

Did that change my point significantly?

No, but your counter didn't alter my original point at all, either.

While it is true that Original Research doesn't have to be about Hermetic Breakthroughs, this is a Hermetic Breakthrough that could be researched, precisely because it is a Lesser Limit. And while it may be true that most breakthroughs aren't to the scope of a Hermetic Breakthrough, that doesn't mean that one can't research such a breakthrough.

Thanks folks. I was not sure how to read the "Limit of Vis" section.
I also had not realized that in most campaigns the Redcaps run such a bank.

Yep, and there is a formal exchange rate, which I can't quite place, in the books. Hopefully someone will post the page.

HoH: TL, p. 84-88
Mostly important: p. 85

It is one of the features of the Mercere chapter that I ... find useful, but also somewhat dislike as I find it somewhat too useful.
It also implies a much more organized and cooperative OoH than earlier editions I find.

If you want to beat a Lesser Limit, there's a condition attached: the Limit must not actually derive from a Greater Limit. (Also, Muto never results in permanent changes, due to the Limit of Essential Nature.)

Most magi think that the Limit of Vis is a corollary to Essential Nature, so it's probably out of bounds unless your troupe decides otherwise. On the other hand, it might be possible to develop a Muto effect that temporarily changes vis (as Muto doesn't change essential nature) and then use the polymorphed vis. Again, Hermetic Breakthrough, so resign yourself to decades of work.

Yes, and no.

First, most magi believe something does not make it so. And secondly there is Extractor of Form and Hermetic Alchemy which allows one to distill vis of a form other than Vim from an aura. Extractor of Form requires the aura to be emblematic of the specific Form, so the virtue and the aura must match, but Hermetic Alchemy has no such requirement, and it is additionally designated as one of the curiously common virtues available to anyone in the order without Initiation.

So, in essence there is a conversion of vis going on here, albeit is a conversion of potential vis into actual vis.

Elementalists can change the form of vis while transferring it between containers, so I'd personally rule that it's magically possible to do so. Hermetic Breakthrough, for sure, but no reason for it to be impossible.

Fair enough!

Which supplement has Hermetic Alchemy?
And is there a short description that you can post?

Mysteries revised edition

I'm going to assume that you understand mystery initiation already and just describe the virtues.

the virtue hermetic alchemy provides two benefits, one of these is that it allows the magus to extract vis of any form (not technique) using a formula that matches the standard vis extraction formula with two exceptions; it includes a shape and material bonus for an object which contains the vis and the lab total is divided by 20 rather than 10.

To clarify, you divide by 20 when distilling a Form other than Vim, but if it's Vim, it's still 10. And then you always get the S&M bonus whether distilling Vim or another Form.

For Verditius magi this can create significant bonuses, because the Craft score can also add and Philosophiae, if the Elder Runes have been initiated.

There was in 3rd edition. And it was trashed for good reason.

Remember: hermetic nature cannot change the true nature of things.

What could have a truer nature of being fire than ignem-vis?
You want to change that into aquam-vis?
To create a well serving cold water?

I can understand that the micromanagement involved with the bookkeeping of 15 types of vis is rather unadventurous and such a spell would be useful. But I'd rather go with "Vis is Vis is Vis": Every pawn of vis is vim vis, and vim vis can be used for everything. Looses some of the fluff, but in my book, this is much more logical than changing one type of vis into another.


Well, there is really a relatively simple method for converting vis into other forms, and that's Redcaps in their capacity of lenders and moneychangers.
I can almost handwave the logistics of the transaction away, if there's regular interactions with Redcaps, or of the resident Redcap to the covenant visits the Mercere House regularly, and just convert the surplus vis into the desired Technique/Form of vis.