Nature Lore, Forest Lore & Animal Ken

[pi4t]

Hi all. I have a player looking to make a Bjornaer magus from the Huntress in the Wood (which initiates Nature Lore). She has also taken Animal Ken via a virtue at character creation. I'm confused about how these two abilities overlap, and how they connect with Forest Lore. I'm aware that Nature Lore claims that Forest Lore is a special version of it, but the two abilities don't match up exactly and it's ambiguous how they work. I'm looking for some guidance on how to rule it. I suspect that for most of these questions, there's no official ruling, so I'd also appreciate suggestions from more experienced players and GMs about how to make this coherent.

1. Forest Lore is an arcane ability which anyone can learn just by spending time in a forest, while Nature Lore is a supernatural ability which requires a virtue (or the Gift and an exceptional source quality) to learn. Is this a retcon to Forest Lore?

2. The rank 1 ability for Nature Lore rather cryptically says that "Limited communication is possible". In the case of Nature Lore (Forest), is this simply a restatement of the Forest Lore rank 1 ability to enter communion with the genius locus of the forest, or is it an upgrade allowing more general communication? If it's an upgrade, what does "limited" mean in this context? And does it only allow the magus to communicate with the genius locus of the forest, or can she communicate with (say) an individual tree within the forest?

3. The rank 5 ability of Nature Lore lets you "communicate fluently with nature in the area". The text on page 103 of HoH:MC says that a character with 5 ranks in Mountain Lore could interrogate a rock, but this process takes several hours. Presumably, this rock has to be in the character's home area, or you would need 8 ranks. But once you have 8 ranks, can you then talk to any rock in the world, or only ones on mountains? Given how slow communication with a rock is anyway, what does "fluent" communication look like in practice? Can you communicate with all nature in the area, or only nature that fits the area lore? For example, could someone with Area Lore (Mountains) speak to a tree on a mountain?

4. If Nature Lore (Animals) allows you to speak to animals, is there any reason to have both it and Animal Ken? Nature Lore (Animals) 8 gives you the ability to speak fluently to any animals anywhere in the world, costs roughly the same XP as Nature Lore (Animals) 5 and Animal Ken 5 put together, and only requires a single virtue.

5. What is the difference between an "elementary understanding of the area", a "basic understanding of the place", and an "awareness of the supernatural elements of the area"? If the area is a faerie wood, would the magus learn about its faerie properties at rank 0 (since they're clearly a major danger in this forest), at rank 1 (because it's about the faerie denizens of the wood) or at rank 2 (because they're supernatural)?

6. The Animal "area" covers "All wild creatures living in a region". But most of the abilities of Nature Lore give you information about the geographical features of the area and tell you about the area's denizens. How should these be interpreted for animal regions?

7. A nature lore of 11 gives you the ability to target any part of any area as if you had a permanent arcane connection to it. Does this give you the ability to target any rock/plant/animal, anywhere on the entire planet? And mentally communicate with any rock/plant/animal on the planet simply by thinking about it? If so, is there any way that this doesn't immediately break the game?

8. Nature Lore can only be advanced by "Adventure, Practice, or Exposure experience, and the Source Quality is equal to the aura of the area". Does this source quality apply to all three kinds of experience?

Thanks in advance.

[ezzelino]

@pi4t

Hi all. I have a player looking to make a Bjornaer magus from the Huntress in the Wood (which initiates Nature Lore). She has also taken Animal Ken via a virtue at character creation. I'm confused about how these two abilities overlap, and how they connect with Forest Lore. I'm aware that Nature Lore claims that Forest Lore is a special version of it, but the two abilities don't match up exactly and it's ambiguous how they work. I'm looking for some guidance on how to rule it. I suspect that for most of these questions, there's no official ruling, so I'd also appreciate suggestions from more experienced players and GMs about how to make this coherent.

I'll start by saying that I'd appreciate it very much myself!
I agree that, despite the claims, the two abilities are different in a number of ways.
I also have to say that GotF Forest Lore appears to me much better written, and devoid of any ambiguity.

@pi4t

1. Forest Lore is an arcane ability which anyone can learn just by spending time in a forest, while Nature Lore is a supernatural ability which requires a virtue (or the Gift and an exceptional source quality) to learn. Is this a retcon to Forest Lore [from GotF]?

I'd say no. One crucial observation I'd make is that Forest Lore as described in GotF is not "an arcane ability which anyone can learn just by spending time in a (generic) forest". The sentence must be read in the context of the entire chapter of GotF. Forest Lore is not about "forests" in general, it's about the multiple mystical forests into which the Hercynian Forest was shattered. So, "a forest" in that context should be read as "one of those mystical forests" and "Forest" should be read as the Hercynian Forest.

So Forest Lore in GotF is both much more localized than, say, Mountain Lore as described in HoH:MC, and it "leverages" the mystical power of the Hercynian Forest. Furthermore, it's way weaker, particularly at higher levels. So I'd say it's ok for GotF-Forest Lore to be learnable as an Arcane Ability rather than a Supernatural one.

@pi4t

2. The rank 1 ability for Nature Lore rather cryptically says that "Limited communication is possible". In the case of Nature Lore (Forest), is this simply a restatement of the Forest Lore rank 1 ability to enter communion with the genius locus of the forest, or is it an upgrade allowing more general communication?

As written, the one in HoH:MC is a strictly more general/powerful version.

@pi4t

If it's an upgrade, what does "limited" mean in this context? And does it only allow the magus to communicate with the genius locus of the forest, or can she communicate with (say) an individual tree within the forest?

As for the HoH:MC version, no mention is made of the genius locus. I'd treat the character as having a common language at level 1 with all "elements" of the area. This is made clearer in the Score 5 example, where a character is explicitly stated to be able to converse with a rock. The original, GotF is explicitly about communication with the genius of each particular forest - a splinter of the original, powerful genius of the Hercynian Forest.

@pi4t

3. The rank 5 ability of Nature Lore lets you "communicate fluently with nature in the area". The text on page 103 of HoH:MC says that a character with 5 ranks in Mountain Lore could interrogate a rock, but this process takes several hours. Presumably, this rock has to be in the character's home area, or you would need 8 ranks. But once you have 8 ranks, can you then talk to any rock in the world, or only ones on mountains?

I read it as follows. You can use Mountain Lore at the "full" score with any element of "mountain nature" from your home region. You can use Mountain Lore with a -3 penalty with any element of "mountain nature" outside of your home region. You cannot use Mountain Lore at all with elements not belonging to "mountain nature". For example, you would not be able to use Mountain Lore, regardless of its level, to speak to a rock in the middle of a swamp.

@pi4t

Given how slow communication with a rock is anyway, what does "fluent" communication look like in practice?

Fluency and speed do not need to be related. Think Treebeard, or imagine some entity that chats with you in elegant, concise, and precise English ... at the rate of one character per minute.

@pi4t

Can you communicate with all nature in the area, or only nature that fits the area lore? For example, could someone with Area Lore (Mountains) speak to a tree on a mountain?

Look at the insert for examples of what is actually encompassed by different Nature Lores.
Someone with Mountain Lore can communicate with "Earth and stone, found in hills, peaks, and valleys". Outside of one's home region, there's of course a -3 to the score.

@pi4t

4. If Nature Lore (Animals) allows you to speak to animals, is there any reason to have both it and Animal Ken? Nature Lore (Animals) 8 gives you the ability to speak fluently to any animals anywhere in the world, costs roughly the same XP as Nature Lore (Animals) 5 and Animal Ken 5 put together, and only requires a single virtue.

Well, the overlap is not quite perfect. For example, Animal Ken allows you to speak to domestic animals, and to animals from any region (note that Animal Lore is the only Lore explicitly limited to a particular region). It also achieves better communication than than Animal Lore for the same xp.

@pi4t

5. What is the difference between an "elementary understanding of the area", a "basic understanding of the place", and an "awareness of the supernatural elements of the area"? If the area is a faerie wood, would the magus learn about its faerie properties at rank 0 (since they're clearly a major danger in this forest), at rank 1 (because it's about the faerie denizens of the wood) or at rank 2 (because they're supernatural)?

The magus would learn about its Faerie nature at score 0, as well as the major places of power and major dangers. The magus would learn more about is denizens at score 1, in particular he'd learn about minor, non-dangerous denizens (say, its shy but mystically potent butterflies). The magus would learn more even more at score 2; for example, he'd learn to recognize those beings who are carrying the blessing of said butterflies.

@pi4t

6. The Animal "area" covers "All wild creatures living in a region". But most of the abilities of Nature Lore give you information about the geographical features of the area and tell you about the area's denizens. How should these be interpreted for animal regions?

Animal Lore is arguably a bit narrower than other Lores.

@pi4t

7. A nature lore of 11 gives you the ability to target any part of any area as if you had a permanent arcane connection to it. Does this give you the ability to target any rock/plant/animal, anywhere on the entire planet?

Well, if you have Mountain Lore, you can indeed target any "element" of Mountain Lore, including every rock from a hill, peak, or valley, anywhere on the planet. Of course, you'd need to know about said element to target it, just like if you are carrying an arcane connection but are unaware of it, you can't really use it. Is it grossly unbalanced? Yes, in my opinion.

@pi4t

And mentally communicate with any rock/plant/animal on the planet simply by thinking about it?

Yes, subject to the limitation above, at score 10; and he can command them at score 12.
Unbalanced for a Minor Virtue? Absolutely, yes.
Note that the GotF version suffers of none of these problems.

@pi4t

8. Nature Lore can only be advanced by "Adventure, Practice, or Exposure experience, and the Source Quality is equal to the aura of the area". Does this source quality apply to all three kinds of experience?

This is vague, but if one looks at the GotF version it becomes somewhat clearer that yes, that's the idea. So, barring some V&Fs like Independent Study, it seems the best option is to always go for exposure, as you gain the same amount of xp but you can also carry out other tasks in the same season.

[callen]

There is an erratum addressing a touch of this:

Nature Lore (Minor Outer Mystery) (p. 103): Change the last sentence of the first paragraph to read as follows. "Merinita's interest was reputedly Forests, and thus that is the most common version. Forest Lore, as described in Guardians of the Forests: The Rhine Tribunal , is a closely related ability, but is not Supernatural, and thus does not require Initiation."

[YR7]

Have you considered Magic Resistance? It seems to me that Animal Ken is not hampered by MR, as it functions "as a score in a language that the animal speaks fluently". Whereas the ability of someone with Animal Lore to speak with ("communicate freely") with animals would require penetration.

Personally - I think nature lore is "cool" but WAY overpowered and should be broken down into a whole initiation-like path. I prefer to give the PCs a comparable initiation path, such as: (1) Nature Lore doubles as Survival, Wilderness Sense, and Area Lore, and as Second Sight to see regiones (all only in the home region, or with -3 outside it); (2) it doubles as Animal Ken for animals in the Nature; (3) Inoffensive to (Beings of the Nature) (RoP:M); (4) Magical Champion (RoP:M); (5) Magical Master (RoP:M); (6) Material Anchor (grants an Aracne Connection to the home region; not to outside it); (7) Presence (grants awareness of everything that happens in the home region).

[The_Fixer]

I'd also advise you to consider Voice of the Forest. Maybe the huntress can initiate this as an alternative?