Nestor ex Misc

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: A New Home
1

Nestor ex Misc, at Gauntlet

Concept: Scatterbrained, university-educated hedge magus that thinks university superior to hermetic apprenticeship and wants to teach his sons to show why the order should establish a university of magic.

Char
St-3 Ag-2 Quk +0 Sta+2 Int+3 Com+5 Pr+1 Per+0

Age: 44
Decreptitude:
Warping Score:
Confidence:
Virtues
*Magister ex Artibus (free – ex Misc)
*Deft mentem (free – ex Misc)
+3 gentle Gift
+1 Good teacher
+1 Affinity: forgetting
+1 skilled parens
+1 self-Confident
+1 Magical Item: Longevity Potion lvl 50 (virtue self-invented, a similar virtue for redcaps exists, concocted by parens during apprenticeship to prevent aging rolls)
+2 great Communications (2x)

Flaws:
*Deficient Muto (free – ex Misc)
-3 Dependents (story: wife and three children, one of them gifted, one gentle-gifted, one ungifted)
-3 Driven: getting the order to replace apprentice ship with a university of magic (like Hogwarts)
-1 fragile memory. People’s names (he is a master at circumventing this by using expressions like: my son, young Tremere, my friend, that pesty Flambeau from Ireland, and will use magic sometimes to jog his memory, but sometimes people just want to hear a name…)
-1 warped magic: people around him (1 pace per magnitude) forget stuff he told them (names, orders) when he casts a spell right after (the higher the magnitude, the longer he has to wait to avoid the effect – I suggest 5 seconds per level. They remember after 1 hour per magnitude, or after being told again (or if they have written instructions). Effect has no penetration.
-1 Fragile Constitution
-1 Hedge magus (outspoken unorthodox views about apprenticeship; an ex Misc shouldn’t bother the others with his inferior nonsense)

Early child package:
Free Greek (Translation) 5 [I assume the specialisation changed later]
15 Area Lore (Constantinople) 2
15 Folk Ken (University) 2
15 Guile (University) 2

Child (17 years: age 6-22 = 255xp), academic abilities allowed
5 Area Lore (Paris) 1
30 Chirurgy (bone setting) 3
5 Athletics (walking) 1
5 Awareness (whispered words) 1
30 Bargain (books) 3
15 Carouse (staying sober) 2
30 Concentration (books) 3
30 Etiquette (university) 3
15 Charm (his wife) 2
30 Intrigue (university questions) 3
15 Leadership (students) 2
30 Arabic (translation) 3

Magister Package:
75 Latin (Translation) 5
75 Artes Liberales (Atronomy) 5
30 Teaching (groups) 3
30 Medicine (children) 3
15 Theology (magic) 2
15 Civil and Canon Law (witchcraft) 2

Apprenticeship with skilled parens (age: 23-38): 240+60= 300xp
50 Magic Theory (Perdo) 4
5 Parma Magica (Corpus) 1
30 Order of Hermes Lore (apprenticeship) 3
30 Codex of Hermes (apprentices) 3

Cr 5 In 5 Mu 0 Pe 7 Re 5
An Aq 1 Au 1 Co 0 He Ig 0 Im 0 Me 10 Te Vi 10

Spells (150 lvls):
Will take some time. I plan to hand-tailor some of them – apart from a few classics like Wizard’s leap, disguise of the new body and DEO.
The flavour spells will deal with teaching gifted children (ironically the obvious MuVi is problematic because of his deficiency), CrMe, InMe, ReMe, InVi, ReVi, PeVi
There may also be two or so spells about forgetting (mostly flavour as well, but with uses).
Ideas are welcome

Note he is using most of his post-gauntlet time to get Arts to 5, so he can become a parens for his sons. Also will have to do the ritual asap, because wife (8 years younger needs one), so Co is a priority (or can it be bought? Or be part of a story? After all the wife has no usual skills apart from cooking and childcare – buh, I do sound sexist)

2

Regarding the longevity ritual, do as you see fit. Either pay for it or have a story. It is your choice. My suggestion is that it cost 2*(the crafting magus lab total/10, rounded up so 41 becomes 5) or have a story. Perhaps a story and some payment if you wish to have a really strong one.

3

By the way, with help in the lab, Kallista can get level 40+ longevity rituals. When she customizes her lab, it will be near 50. So that is option.

4

I've thought it through.
He has paid for his own ritual (by using a virtue)
The one for his wife (who is a dependent - will be in a story for which I already do have an idea). He'll still have to sacrifice additional time to get vis for it (though I assume he'll just write a tractatus in exchange - his tractatus are probably quite interesting for quite a number of magi)

I think I'll write the stories before I choose the spells - they may help me choose spells. I'm not doing this to cheat, but to make sure the roleplayer wins out against my inner munchkin)
Stories:
I. Gauntlet
II. Elopement
III. Nine months later
IV. Who wants to live forever
V Tribunal and tribulation
VI Education - a book
VII Athena - an ally

I. Gauntlet (forgetfulness)
The masters looked at Nestor who had started sweating. Seated among them were Astrolabe ex Jerbiton who had crossed the channel for the occasion and Magister Cuthbert the Brown, his parens.
A feisty doctor of philosophy looked at him gently and asked what everyone thought an easy question: "Last question. Which philosopher of old compared reality as we see it to a cave and where did he live?"
Nestor felt uncomfortable, hot and dizzy. Names, names, names - everybody claimed there was power in names. He new exactly, who the philosopher was, but what was his name again, something with a P? Plotin? Pluto? Plutarch?
After a short hesitaton, he answered: "That famous son of Athens, pupil of a man much vexed by his wife and teacher of a philosopher that has been shaking the pillars of this university, founder of the academy has unified heathen wisdom and Our Lord's word. He says that man cannot see reality as it is, but like a poor drudge chained to a wall in a cave, he can only see the reflections of shadows on the wall. Outside the cave, real things throw real shadows, but that is not for man to see. One must be a creator to conjure forth the Platonic forms, which is a Gift, God has not given to ordinary men."
Astrolabe winks at Cuthbert whose nod means he has passed.

II. Elopement
Outside, Jeanne is waiting, dressed like a virgin for market although she looks old enough to be married. He sees her, they withdraw into a corner and kiss.
"Now I am a magister hermeticum. I will go and ask your father..."
Just then a shdow falls on the couple. It is Guillaume the Lewd, Jeanne's half-brother and her father's favorite son. He hits Jeanne squarely in the face. So you are sinning again with this university dreamer. Did the fate of Abaelard teach you two perverts nothing?"
He steps back with a grin of satisfaction on his face. "Do you believe me now, papa?" he says to the richly dressed merchant behind him.
Jeanne is holding her swollen lips while Nestor briefly looks at the old merchant and his foppish son. Their eyes glaze over and their expression turns dumb as they wonder what they are doing on the market. He draws Jeanne away into the crowd. This makes it thrice now they' ve caught us. Looking at her gently, he adds: "Are you all right, my dove?"
She says: "He'll never consent to our union. And the moon didn't bring my monthlies. They will kill us if they ever find out. Let us go to this strange country you are from, this Eastern Roman Empire you have been talking about so often, and let us become husband and wife, as God wants it, on the way."
He looks deeply into her eyes and replies: "For you I am willing to give up Paris, I can now teach in the Order Hermeticorum. But you will have to leave everything behind and go to a strange land where they speak a language strange to your eyes and where they pray to God in a way the Pope doesn't approve of."
She whispers: "You are all I need in this world and the next, Nestor"

(traveling to Constantinople with a pregnant wife and getting married will take 2 seasons, enough to cover stories one and two: suggested rewards: for story one a positive mundane academic reputation; the flaw true love for story two)
Note: I'll swap the skill Arab (Translation) for French (family). It's less useful but more atmospheric.

III. Nine months later
She had looked up at him serenely before closing the door and said:
"I feel no fear at all. Don't worry."
Of course she didn't. He had used magic to calm her mind, berating himself for not putting more focus on Corpus.
Of course, he had chosen the best midwife, using both mind magic and his medical knowledge, but God's punishment for Eve's sins was a terrible one. He had prayed to the two Marys for a swift delivery and had spent most of thier money on two beautiful candles.
The screams from the other side of the door became louder - to be expected, he told himself with the calmness of a mind magically freed of worries.
But when they ended and the midwife didn't come out and the screaming didn't end, he knew, clamly knew something had gone wrong. Heedless of the consequences, he ended the spell shielding his mind, and fell to the floor - hit by the turbulent force of his fears.
It was there that the midwife found him some time later, carrying a baby in each arm.
(suggested reward: gifted male and female monozygotic twins, they cost at least one season; the longevity ritual makes a third child difficult)

IV. Who wants to live forever
"We have to talk my love."
"Talk?"
"You will be thirty-five, soon. Your beauty will fade like a rose cut from the bush."
"That is how God has planned it for us. You will still love me when my breasts start shifting down the rib-cage, won't you?"
"You know I will. But there is a way for you to avoid aging for several decades. When I passed my gauntlet, my master gave me a salve to slow the effects of aging on me. That is the reason, why my hair still is not grey..."
"Oh, Nestor, you always told me it was my cooking."
"Both, my love, both. I will procure a ritual for you as well: It will make you infertile, but conserve your beauty."
"I want none of it - do you hear me? It's unnatural."
"But..."
"No but..."
"I'm telling you, love, we haven't finished this topic yet."
Secretly, Nestor writes to several potion makers, offering a Creo Tractatus of the highest quality and the vis needed for the ritual in exchange for an unobtrusive ritual for his wife. She has no idea that she has taken it - she will start getting suspicious in 5 years and know for sure in about 10 years...
(Note: it takes 1 season to write a creo tractatus for the potion maker to read; he will also deduct the vis from his posessions; reward: wife ages more slowly; story potential: she loves him, but he has gone against her wishes here...)

5

Sigh!
I had Nestor finished but the computer ate my post!
So I'll just summarize

V. Tribulations at Tribunal
Nestor tries to convince a Tribunal of his alternative teaching concept and offers free tuition to an unlimited number of apprentices for the following season (he is certainly one of the orders top 5 teachers). He speaks convincingly (Com+5, self-confident), but other magi are unwilling to admit it (hedgie rep flaw).
So he only gets three apprentices to teach and some sneer at his ideas
(possible reward: a new positive rep, or a reduction in the negative one)

VI. Dumping prices
To find more support for his goal of founding a magic university, and to establish his credentials as a good teacher, Nestor writes and publishes a tractatus on Vim and allows others to read it free of charge.
Wizard's War is declared on him, because his free book of the highest quality ruins the income of a covenant that gains vis by lending Vim books. He has to hide at a powerful magus' covenant with his family and serve the other magus as a lab helper for a season
(costs 2 seasons, one for writing the Tractatus and one for hiding; reward. the tractatus and a reputation as a good writer/teacher)

VII. Athena
The wise Owl of the Forest of Dacia hears traveling apprentices speak about Nestor's plan to found a university of magic. She poses as the Godess Athena and sends him messages, luring him into her forest, and offers to come with him as Head of languages.
(reward: ally or - if SG permits - animal usable as a familiar)

7 years pg:
8 seasons spent on stories for 7 flaws (see above):
suggested rewards (I don't ask for xp, because my character is older anyway):
forgetfulness:

  • mundane academic reputation
    dependents:
  • a lovely French wife (both Jeanne and nestor get true love flaw)
  • monozygotic gifted twins: boy and girl
  • longevity potion for wife, self-written tractatus on Creo (Q14); Nestor must pay 5p of vis
    driven: found a university of magic
  • improving reputation (2x): by speaking at Tribunal, teaching apprentices for free, and offering a free Tractatus on Vim;
  • a self-written Tractatus on Vim
  • Athena, Wise owl of the forest (RoP:M, 65), as an ally or potential familiar

Seasons left after stories: 20

  • 15 seasons used for raising Arts (so he can start teaching his twins): 150xp
    result: Mu 5, An 5, Aq 5, Au 5, Co 7(2), He 5, Ig 5, Im 5, Te 5 (at gauntlet a total of 2xp were spent on these arts)
  • 2 season to invent spells and/or create an item (for the family), details later
  • 3 seasons: familiar improvement (if I can't have Athena as a familiar, I'll invent family stuff instead, and spend two seasons on opening the twins' arts)

To do:
for Max: (dis)approve of my planning so far
For me: invent spells/items (Question for max: How deadly is your game? Do I have room for fluff spells that rock cradles or do I better spent all levels on serious stuff?)

6

Spells (ArM5 unless otherwise noted)
Deo PeVi15
Feo PeVi15 (Fairie DEO)
Meo peVi15 (Magic DEO)
Art Thou Gifted? InVi15 (base 10, +1 Touch; Used on his children – useful to find apprentices, fits character concept, flavor spell)

Group Call to Slumber ReMe15
Bitter Taste of Betrayal InVi15 (HoH:TL; useful with apprentices around)
Posing the Silent Question (InMe20)
Personal Disguise of the New Body (MuCo5); likeArM5 131, but without part and restricted to personal, deficiency applies)
I was never here (PeVi5); MoH, 93 (focus applies)

Wizard’s leap ReCo15; HoH:S, Flambeau spells
Loss of but a moment’s memory PeMe15 (focus applies)

Note: I need feedback on these last 2 posts to finish character

7

Sorry, I forgot to write… Your planning seems fine and I am not sure on how deadly my saga is going to be but not too deadly. I adapt to the characters as my aim is that everyone should have fun. There is too much time invested in each character for them to risk too much but then there are dices in this game so no one is to sure on the outcome. I can’t give you a straight answer on that one I am afraid.

8

Sorry to bug you again, but could you set me straight about if/which story rewards are chosen.

9

Take the rewards. Nothing wrong with them. Have a familiari if you wish.

10

So I'll start a final version (will need to get home to my books ere I can called it finished but I can at least start

Nestor ex Misc, at 7pg

Concept: Scatterbrained, university-educated hedge magus that thinks university superior to hermetic apprenticeship and wants to teach his sons to show why the order should establish a university of magic.

Char
St-3 Ag-2 Quk +0 Sta+2 Int+3 Com+5 Pr+1 Per+0

Age: 44
Decreptitude: 0
Warping Score: 2(1)
Confidence: 2(5)
Virtues: *Magister ex Artibus (free – ex Misc), *Deft mentem (free – ex Misc),Gentle Gift; Affinity: forgetting, Good teacher, great Communications (2x), Magical Item: Longevity Potion lvl 50, self-confident, skilled parens,

Flaws:
*Deficient Muto (free – ex Misc), Dependents (story: wife and twin children), Driven: getting the order to replace apprentice ship with a university of magic (like Hogwarts), fragile memory: People’s names, warped magic: people around him (1 pace per magnitude) forget stuff he told them (names, orders) when he casts a spell right after (the higher the magnitude, the longer he has to wait to avoid the effect – I suggest 5 seconds per level. They remember after 1 hour per magnitude, or after being told again (or if they have written instructions). Effect has no penetration, Fragile Constitution, Hedge magus (outspoken unorthodox views about apprenticeship; an ex Misc shouldn’t bother the others with his inferior nonsense), True Love (wife), True friend (Athena, owl familiar)

Skills:
Area Lore (Constantinople) 2, Area Lore (Paris) 1, Artes Liberales (Astronomy) 5, Athletics (walking) 1, Awareness (whispered words) 1, Bargain (books) 3, Carouse (staying sober) 2, Charm (his wife) 2, Chirurgy (bone setting) 3, Civil and Canon Law (witchcraft) 2, Codex of Hermes (apprentices) 3, Concentration (books) 3, Etiquette (university) 3, Folk Ken (University) 2, French (family) 3, Greek (Translation) 5, Guile (University) 2, Intrigue (university questions) 3, Latin (Translation) 5, Leadership (students) 2, Magic Theory (Perdo) 4, Medicine (children) 3, Order of Hermes Lore (apprenticeship) 3, Parma Magica (Corpus) 1, Teaching (groups) 3, Theology (magic) 2

Weapons:
A clumsy weakling like him uses weapons only to sharpen his writing quill

Arts:
Cr 5 In 5 Mu 5 Pe 7 Re 5
An 5 Aq 5 Au 5 Co 7(2) He 5 Ig 5 Im 5 Me 10 Te 5 Vi 10

Spells (includes focus, deficiency):
Personal Disguise of the New Body (MuCo5), +7 likeArM5 131, but without part and restricted to personal, deficiency applies)
Wizard’s leap ReCo15, +14 (HoH:S, Flambeau spells)
Posing the Silent Question, InMe20, +17
I was never here (PeMe5), +26 (MoH, 93 focus applies)
Loss of but a moment’s memory PeMe15, +26 (focus applies)
Group Call to Slumber ReMe15, +17
Art Thou Gifted? InVi15, +17 (base 10, +1 Touch; Used on his children – useful to find apprentices, fits character concept, flavor spell)
Bitter Taste of Betrayal InVi15, +17 (HoH:TL; useful with apprentices around)Demon's Eternal Oblivion PeVi15, +19
Fairie's Eternal Oblivion PeVi15, +19
Dragon's Eternal Oblivion PeVi15, +19

reputations:
Merddlesome Hedgie (Order of Hermes) 4
Outstanding teacher/writer (Order of Hermes) 2, (University) 1

Clothes/Important stuff:
Scholarly robes (magister rank, University of Paris)
writing stuff
Tractatus Creating Longevity Potions for Ungifted Females by Nestor ex Misc (Q14)
Tractatus The Gifted Child by Nestor ex Misc (Q14)
p of vis
Labtexts: Longevity rituals for himself (Lvl50) and his wife Jeanne (lvl 50)
Athena, Wise Owl of the Forest (see RoP:M 65)

spending 5 seasons left:
1st season: Bind familiar (using: InMe lab total of In 5 + Me 10 + Int 3 + Aura 3 + MT 4); Gold link +1, Silver link +1, Bronze link +2 (total of 25); needed 25+17-20 = 22
costs 5p of vis
2nd season and 3rd season for two-way mental communication with familiar:
Lab total: Cr 5 + Me 10 + Int 3 + Aura 3 + MT 4 + 5 for Bond matches Me) = 30
costs 4p of vis
Seasons 4+5: Minor item: Far-Speaker
Lvl 15 (Base 1, +1 intelligible speech, +1 conc., +4 Arc. Connection)
These clip earrings allow the wearer once a day to project his or her voice to a place/person he or she has an arcane connection to. Nestor and his wife Jeanne use the pair of them so they can "telephone" at sundown when his parma is down (and he can hear if she is well and vice/versa). He always calls first, so she knows it is safe for him to project her voice. If she didn't answer, Nestor would return at the highest possible speed to the covenant to see what's wrong. If he doesn't call for three days in a row, she is told to alarm the covenant.

Lab total:
Cr 5 + Me 10 + Int 3 + Earrings (to clip on) 4 (limited by MT) + Aura 3 + 2 familiar int = +27
experimentation with risk +2 without special effects (invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2705263/) 1+2 for risk = 30
vis cost: 2x2=4p

11

Hey, Jean quick question. I thought the Major Hermetic Flaw that Ex Misc get didn't count towards their requirement of having to take one?

12

Does Max have a house rule stating that you have to take a major hermetic flaw?
He's got two minor one, his hedgie rep and warped magic.
Serf's parma, but I thought the raw state hermetic flaw, not major hermetic flaw.

13

... And you would be totally correct. For some reason I thought it said Major Hermetic Flaw... So forget what I said! :wink: Like the concept by the way, reminds me a bit of a Hedge Tradition I'm a fan of.

14

Nestor ex Misc, at 7.25pg

Concept: Scatterbrained, university-educated hedge magus that thinks university superior to hermetic apprenticeship and wants to teach his sons to show why the order should establish a university of magic.

Char
St-3 Ag-2 Quk +0 Sta+2 Int+3 Com+5 Pr+1 Per+0

Age: 44
Decreptitude: 0
Warping Score: 2(1)
Confidence: 2(5)
Virtues: *Magister ex Artibus (free – ex Misc), *Deft mentem (free – ex Misc),Gentle Gift; Affinity: forgetting, Good teacher, great Communications (2x), Magical Item: Longevity Potion lvl 50, self-confident, skilled parens,

Flaws:
*Deficient Muto (free – ex Misc), Dependents (story: wife and twin children), Driven: getting the order to replace apprentice ship with a university of magic (like Hogwarts), fragile memory: People’s names, warped magic: people around him (1 pace per magnitude) forget stuff he told them (names, orders) when he casts a spell right after (the higher the magnitude, the longer he has to wait to avoid the effect – I suggest 5 seconds per level. They remember after 1 hour per magnitude, or after being told again (or if they have written instructions). Effect has no penetration, Fragile Constitution, Hedge magus (outspoken unorthodox views about apprenticeship; an ex Misc shouldn’t bother the others with his inferior nonsense), True Love (wife), True friend (Athena, owl familiar)

Skills:
Area Lore (Constantinople) 2, Area Lore (Paris) 1, Artes Liberales (Astronomy) 5, Athletics (walking) 1, Awareness (whispered words) 1, Bargain (books) 3, Carouse (staying sober) 2, Charm (his wife) 2, Chirurgy (bone setting) 3, Civil and Canon Law (witchcraft) 2, Codex of Hermes (apprentices) 3, Concentration (books) 3, Etiquette (university) 3, Folk Ken (University) 2, French (family) 3, Greek (Translation) 5, Guile (University) 2, Intrigue (university questions) 3, Latin (Translation) 5, Leadership (students) 2, Magic Theory (Perdo) 4, Medicine (children) 3, Order of Hermes Lore (apprenticeship) 3, Parma Magica (Corpus) 1, Teaching (groups) 3, Theology (magic) 2

Weapons:
A clumsy weakling like him uses weapons only to sharpen his writing quill

Arts:
Cr 5 In 5 Mu 5 Pe 7(5) Re 5
An 5 Aq 5 Au 5 Co 7(2) He 5 Ig 5 Im 5 Me 10 Te 5 Vi 10

Spells (includes focus, deficiency):
Personal Disguise of the New Body (MuCo5), +7 likeArM5 131, but without part and restricted to personal, deficiency applies)
Wizard’s leap ReCo15, +14 (HoH:S, Flambeau spells)
Posing the Silent Question, InMe20, +17
I was never here (PeMe5), +26 (MoH, 93 focus applies)
Loss of but a moment’s memory PeMe15, +26 (focus applies)
Group Call to Slumber ReMe15, +17
Art Thou Gifted? InVi15, +17 (base 10, +1 Touch; Used on his children – useful to find apprentices, fits character concept, flavor spell)
Bitter Taste of Betrayal InVi15, +17 (HoH:TL; useful with apprentices around)
Demon's Eternal Oblivion PeVi15, +19
Fairie's Eternal Oblivion PeVi15, +19
Dragon's Eternal Oblivion PeVi15, +19; mastery 1:

reputations:
Merddlesome Hedgie (Order of Hermes) 4
Outstanding teacher/writer (Order of Hermes) 2, (University) 1

Clothes/Important stuff:
Scholarly robes (magister rank, University of Paris)
writing stuff
Tractatus Creating Longevity Potions for Ungifted Females by Nestor ex Misc (Q14)
Tractatus The Gifted Child by Nestor ex Misc (Q14)
p of vis
Labtexts: Longevity rituals for himself (Lvl50) and his wife Jeanne (lvl 50)
Athena, Wise Owl of the Forest (see RoP:M 65)

spending 5 seasons left:
1st season: Bind familiar (using: InMe lab total of In 5 + Me 10 + Int 3 + Aura 3 + MT 4); Gold link +1, Silver link +1, Bronze link +2 (total of 25); needed 25+17-20 = 22
costs 5p of vis
2nd season and 3rd season for two-way mental communication with familiar:
Lab total: Cr 5 + Me 10 + Int 3 + Aura 3 + MT 4 + 5 for Bond matches Me) = 30
costs 4p of vis
Seasons 4+5: Minor item: Far-Speaker
Lvl 15 (Base 1, +1 intelligible speech, +1 conc., +4 Arc. Connection)
These clip earrings allow the wearer once a day to project his or her voice to a place/person he or she has an arcane connection to. Nestor and his wife Jeanne use the pair of them so they can "telephone" at sundown when his parma is down (and he can hear if she is well and vice/versa). He always calls first, so she knows it is safe for him to project her voice. If she didn't answer, Nestor would return at the highest possible speed to the covenant to see what's wrong. If he doesn't call for three days in a row, she is told to alarm the covenant.

Item (he has 2 of them):
Lab total:
Cr 5 + Me 10 + Int 3 + Earrings (to clip on) 4 (limited by MT) + Aura 3 + 2 familiar int = +27
experimentation with risk +2 without special effects (invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2705263/) 1+2 for risk = 30
vis cost: 2x2=4p

Development:
Year 8 season 1: opening the arts of his apprentice; adventure (meeting the bishop, sailing to Naxos: 5xp to Pe: 7(5))