I understand and I think my comment was misunderstood. Beyond the technical arguments you mentioned, I think it would be even more difficult for these players to make apprentices. While they wouldn't have to make all the choices at once like a starting magi, they would have to anticipate a path of development, which could be hard for a new player.
They are going to be making newly gauntleted magi, the apprentices of the magi of a modified semita erribunda (I create the senior magi based on the apprentices they choose). I just thought it would be cool to start them as just-on-the-cusp: all they need to do to become magi is complete their gauntlet, swear the oath, and find a covenant that they can join. This would allow the pc's to be shown rather than told how the order works.
I still plan to do this, I just want some rules and/or fluff to get my creative energies flowing. My current plan is that their parens will task them to pierce the veil of the broken covenant and return with proof that they have braved its depths and a tale that proves they are worthy to call themselves magi. Completing this task will be passing their gauntlet.
Later, they'll have the option to continue exploring calebais and developing it as a chapterhouse. Later still, they make take on apprentices that are developed over time, using the rules in the book-coming-soon. Since they won't be developing their first magi to be the ultimate scholar, I'm not too concerned about abuse and over-powered apprentices, that's many years down the road, although I hope the book at least partially adresses the problems.
Ahh. Well for Gauntlet fluff, Houses of Hermes books provide some information.
Bonisagus generally have a comprehensive Magic Theory examination. If they are Trianomae, they usually have to complete a journey on their own. Some on
Guernicus typically have a mock trial and it has some hidden moral/ethical component to the trial.
Tytalus gauntlets only happen when the apprentice demands it, and it involves some sort of contest between master and apprentice. The master isn't supposed to put up too much of a challenge. Also, if an apprentice kills their master they are declared to be a full magus in House Tytalus with all the rights and privileges thereto.
Verditius have to produce an apprentice masterpiece that their parens judges worthy.
Tremere is a Certamen contest where the mater and apprentice duel, usually done in such a way as to highlight the Arts of his apprentice. Such a contest is "judged" by the highest ranking Tremere of the Tribunal (usually the exarch) available, and he is named a magus if found worthy. No Tremere parens would allow an apprentice to challenge without him being ready, so it is unheard of for the exarch or other high ranking Tremere to deny the apprentice has passed his gauntlet. It's a huge slap in the face to master and apprentice.
Flambeau isn't well described by HoH:Societas, but it is some sort of contest, and a public event.
Jerbiton's gauntlet isn't described at all, but I imagine it isn't very rigorous. I do know that the Itinerium precedes the gauntlet, and may satisfy the demands of said gauntlet. Producing some object d'Art may suffice, as well.
Ex Misc are entirely dependent upon the tradition and would vary greatly.
I'm unsure about Criamon, Merinita, Bjornaer, Mercere (Magical or Redcaps)
Apprentices who fail a gauntlet three times are given a fourth test by a Quaesitor (presume it's pretty easy) and are usually forced to join Ex Misc with some suitably bad reputation to follow...
The Jerbiton gauntlet, carried over from previous editions, is an examination which always has the same questions, Confucian style. That being said, it's not multiple choice: your answers matter. You must show that you get the idea: that you suit the, admittedly very broad, parameters of the house's ethos.
The Criamon apprentice needs ot solve a riddle posed by the master ot the satisfaction of a group of other magi. Certain riddles are traditional for this purpose, and short answers are prefered, possibly not in spoken form, but again, your answer can't just be rote: it needs to demonstrate that you have the inklings of Enigmatic Wisdom.
Non-magical Mercere are anyone accepted by the Primus as a Mercere. The Primus may come up with little missions if she wishes.
Thank you Johnathan and Timothy. All that detail is great, really helped clear up a foggy area of the setting as written for me. Frankly, haven't bought the HoH books yet, as I didn't want to overwhelm my players or myself with too many options. I've focused on books like Hermetic Projects and The Mysteries that can be introduced to the saga gradually.
I think for this saga, I'll stick with my initial idea. Some of the gauntlets you described sound quite interesting, but might be difficult for a new player to act through, and would turn into a lot of "tell" and not much "show."
My "your parens commands you to go on an epic quest to prove you are worthy" idea might sound cheesy to some, but keep in mind that this is our first ArM saga.
I can always later say, if I want to introduce those more formal gauntlets, that Semita Errabunda did things in an unconventional way. SE's deviations from standard practices in the order are already scheduled to come up in the saga, once the players are familiar enough with things to be able to handle tribunal politics, so this weird gauntlet could just be one more bit of evidence that they aren't doing things correctly...
Can't recall where I read it, but there was a story about a Flambeau magus (usual Creo Ignem type) that got some training in sword usage during apprenticeship, much to his puzzlement sicne he could roast practically any opponent in sight easily. Then, for his gauntlet his parens gave him a stout cloak and a sword (and nothing else except his usual clothes), put him in the middle of a forest in Russia during wintertime and told him to be back home in 3 months. And he was forbidden to use magic during that period. What about that for a challenge I found the project extremely cool as a gauntlet idea.
Gauntlets should be a test of magic, IMO. Also, if I sign up to play a magus, telling me I'm not allowed to have him cast magic seems like the SG is undercutting my character design, IMO.
Not really. Gauntlet is a test of you being a worthy member of the Order of Hermes. It is a challenge to push you and demonstrate the limits of your skills, magical or otherwise. There is no requisite there for you to have to use magic during gauntlet. There are quite a few canonical stories where magic is NOT the key to solve the gauntlet.
And if I design a Flambeau with single weapon 5 and survival 4 I would find it perfectly fine for the SG to play on that instead of the assorted "roast stuff" spells that I have in my spell book.
Oh, yes, I misunderstood. If you took a high weapon skill, you're perfectly right. I think one of the RAW do say it needs to be a test of magic, but if you and your SG both go for this, then that's great.
Not really. You use your survival skills. you can use magic as well, but then you fail your test. Easy enough. I would say that for the militant houses a lot of gauntlets could easily follow similar patterns. I can see a tytalus easily saying "go and get a queen of vis from the fae court in the forest". How you get it, is up to you. And we all know that a queen of vis is not cheap in terms of faerie bargaining. You can solve that without using magic. Or with magic. No difference to the final result.
BTW: IIRC the RAW already lists the Redcap gantlet, and it is way worse than the Flambeau one I posted.
The Flambeau one is not mine, BTW. I read it somewhere. IMS gauntlets tend to be more like the tytalus one I posted. Stealing a SPQR standard (or similar) from a dragon (or similar) is also common. Jean of berwick, one of our characters, had to bring the Crown of England to the council and using second magnitude spells at most. He convinced the young richard the lionheart (not that nickname at the time) to steal it for him "as a joke that will annoy your father" (we all know that Henry II had the troublesome underlings flaw). Lucky for him he could return it before anyone noticed it too much.
I think using magic is an important part of the Gauntlet, Redcaps excepted, of course. Knowing how and when to use magic is as important, if not more important than knowing magic. What's to stop a grog from completing the same "gauntlet" using non magical skills, just like the Flambeau of your example? Would he be welcomed into the Order? I could see some sick Tytalus gauntleting tons of magi using this method, if magic isn't involved... There's already a precedent for unGifted members of the Order in the House. I'm sure a Tytalus would love to push that point until it breaks...
I really should have started a "how do you use gauntlets in your campaign" thread - sorry for pulling this one off topic. You guys are awesome; throw out a question and so many good ideas come flooding rapidly back. Putting aside for a moment the debate over a gauntlet where success is dependent on not using magic (not part of my idea, interesting, sounds like a YSMV situation), it sounds like my idea of a gauntlet-quest is not without precident in other games.
For my money, the Order-at-large respects the "Your master, his rules" point of view, but overall considers gauntlet to be about showing basic competency in magical skill, plus perhaps some wisdom in its application, rather than some personality test or non-magical skill test. Magi that will focus on the latter may piss off others, that will see them as diluting the Order or House, and magi with such gauntlets may begin with a Bad Reputation. In extreme cases, there may be calls for a Quasitor to deny that the gauntlet was legal, or force a Quaesitor-run gauntlet be held.
Player characters are a different matter - do what works for your saga. But generally, I wouldn't let NPCs run non-magical gauntlets. In the above Russian-forest scenario, for example, I might for example set up the situation so that the apprentice would need to be WISE in its application of magic (for example - the forest fay may resent fire magic), but so that he will need to use it in the right way and in the right time to succeed in his gauntlet.
I might be remembering from 4th ed solely, but IIRC the old book Houses of Hermes (or was it order of Hermes??? I think it was Houses... but anyway it was the later of the two publications) has some things written about Gauntlets. I think Mercere Redcaps (un-Gifted) were tested by having them deliver a message under difficult circumstances. Bonisagus was a test of Magic Theory. Guernicus was a test of legal matters. So quite a lot non-magical stuff. Flambeau were dropped far away in hostile territory with no supplies shortly before a Tribunal and told they had to make it to the meeting before it ended in onder to 'graduate'.
I think whatever the player, SG and Troupe in general agree on is fine. But if one person expects to fling around heavy magic and is told he can't it plaun and simple sucks!
But what does this have to do with Grogs? Because face it - that book is the more important of the two... wink It is the one I' most excited about seeing published...
That situation completely without tools? Survival skills can only do so much.
I did a lot of "outdoors" when i was younger, and my "survival skills" was pretty decent, but even at my very best shape and skills, in a situation like above, i´d have to be extremely lucky to last even a week.
Winter survival in such a harsh place is just so much worse than otherwise. You either have equipment or a prepared place and supplies or you need to be exceptionally skilled or lucky.
One day of bad weather and you´re gone.
He marched his last apprentice. he was too young for the responsibility of wielding such power. Gauntlet can easily be seen as proof that you can just do that (are mature enough) if you have already shown that you can cast spells. The final arbitrer of your magus-hood is just your parens (or it might invove a quaesitor in the current canon, can't recall) so if your parens already thinks you are a worthy spell-slinger he might be asking if you are a worthy bigger thing. Any moron with the gift can cast supernatural effects around directly or indirectly, but that does not make you a MAGUS worthy of that name. Magical skill and the right to call yourself a hermetic magus are not necessarily the same.
The grog in the counterexample could hope to pass the last exam i the gauntlet, but I see the gauntlet as being a 15 year process with lots of "exams" along the way. The grog would have failed most of the other ones and so would not qualify for the last final exam.
IMS we have used those:
Steal the crown of England. Twice. First time we sank the royal treasury to get it. (rewriting history...). second case explained above. Minor Rego and Muto mentem spells used as well as a magic item to teleport home and back to court circumventing the "thou cannot cast spells above second magnitude" part. A CrIm spell made the theft less evident. Ingenuity is something that gets rewarded IMS. Peter of warwick (Jerbiton, PC)
Negotiate a peace settlement between Alba and the earl of Northumbria (blatant gifted criamon: manipulated their dreams to achieve the result; no damage done to other OoH members, so got off with a minor warning). Riddle of Criamon, NPC
Increase the revenue of the covenant in a year. The wealth must be mundane. Aurora exTremere (PC, daughter of Peter and Marie ex tremere, both PC magi). She pulled strings in Coeris to get resources and a team of Terram magi to do the job. She decided to construct a harbor between Mann and the calf of Mann. It rapidly became the main revenue of the covenant. In the meantime she negotiated with the tritons that were upset at the construction and made an enchanted trident for their leader so that we ended up having a host of "maritime police" when we started with some enemies. Graduated with honors. Loads of fun playing the adventures (Coeris visit, construction-Tritons)
Make the local gruagachan agree to join the OoH. Big fail. it was a NPC (trianoma) action but we played through it none the less (as the gruagachan). The gruagachan attacked us afterwards.
Beat Carmagon. Carmagon being a medium power drake with a(non magical) poisonous breath. Aine of Flambeau (PC, apprentice of Presteris, another PC). Straight hunt where it was not clear who was the hunter and hunted.
Note that I started by mentioning what I was sorry to see not get more attention in Apprentices. No complaints yet about Grogs.
If I had one though, it would be that it didn't come out before my players made their first grogs...but no worries, once they get to the covenant, make their magi and companions, I'm sure we'll be ready to return to grogs and be glad for new content about them.
I found the project extremely cool as a gauntlet idea.
