The general consensus is that Secondary Insight and Elemental magic are clearly underpowered compared to most of the other existing Virtues, such as Affinity or Book Learner. So the fact that Empedoclean Magic is overpowered compared to underpowered Virtues does not tell us much!
And once again, let me stress that to take full advantage of the xp bonus, you have to spread your xp in a way that's generally considered to lead to underpowered characters (the complete Form generalist). The Empedoclean magus simply cannot have a great score in any Art other than the Elements, and to have a high score in one or two of the Elements he has to sacrifice much of the value of the Virtue (since the non-Elemental Forms operate at the level of the lowest Elemental form).
If you do not die or pass into Twilight first, that's true. However, how many Quality 10 Tractatus do you need to reach a score of 40 in an Art? Assuming no special Virtues or Flaws, and no other sources of experience, the answer is 82. A look at the demographics of the Order shows this is not such a high number to expect to be around.
It is. It´s interesting and has potential but compared to the more powerful Major Virtues, it´s still clearly more powerful. You´re not wrong when you say that the downsides makes up for the good sides to some extent, just not THAT much.
If i had come up with it, i would probably have made it a Greater Virtue, its powerlevel is roughly in the upper part between Major and Greater...
Or 14 in all Forms for 1050 XP. So the bonus is essentially +6 in 10 forms. Almost as if you get 10 Major Virtues...
Just a wee bit much for a single Major Virtue...
Oh and BTW Jonah, (May study Arts, Magic Theory and Enigmatic Wisdom without the aid of a laboratory; may study Arts from natural Elemental phenomena as if studying from raw vis), that´s a very nice idea i think.
I think an interesting metaphyiscal interpretation of this is that it would allow autocthonous creation of plants/animals/people? After all, its not Creo if you are mixing things. Mixing the flour to make a cake isn't Creo: it's REgo and doesn't need vis.
Any specialist should really have Affinity with their special Art, cutting it down to the mid 50s.
And early on you´re likely to be able to find decent books. If you stick with AM5 core, you can have Quality 11 up to level 20, from just a single book. And then we´re down to 61 or 41.
And as you say, 82 is certainly not outside of realism to aquire, might take a while and be somewhat expensive, but not THAT bad.
That's why I said this'll vary from saga to saga: The demographics of the order tells us nothing about book production or exchange, which allow for sagas where the order cooperate fully and produce a lot of books, and sagas in which magi seldom write on the arts and keep their books to themselves and their mates.
Even in a given saga, this may vary if you're a mercere or an Ex Miscellanea, what's your tribunal, what's your covenant, its relationships with other covenants...
So no, even if 82 may be very little in some sagas, it will still be way too much in others.
For an exemple, check the Practicia Covenant, which, even if it is a "theoretical" covenant, has its member study an awful lot from vis. In such a saga, vis-less vis study would be awesome.
I'm not convinced by your argument, Direwolf!
An Art score of 40 requires 820xp.
With an Affinity that becomes 1230xp -- a score of 49, for a bonus of +9.
According to your words, that means Affinity, a corebook Minor Virtue, is worth almost one and a half times a Major Virtue...
I think the fundamental flaw of your argument (and that of others) is that you are looking at the situation in which you would gain the most from the Virtue -- which is however, a situation that is otherwise generally avoided, so it's not a good point of reference to gauge the differential modifier of the Virtue. It's a little like saying: "if your only experience source are vain Tractati of Quality 3, Book Learner is suddenly providing you a 100% bonus on ALL experience you are gaining -- therefore Book Learner is grossly overpowered". Ok, but who would want to study from vain Tractati of Quality 3?
Let me try one last tack, for any of you playing a PC in some saga: if you were given the choice between Empedoclean Magic and an other Major Virtue (or three Minor Virtues) of your choosing, what would you take? Consider the results in practice, not some abstract "xp bonus percentage"! In my saga, I'm pretty certain none of the players would take Empedoclean Magic, save possibly one (and even that one is not too likely).
Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that the consensus is against my view -- even though I'm still convinced I'm right on this one
So I'm bailing out -- I do not want to derail discussion any further. Let me say again that, though mechanically I find the path a bit underpowered (all stations, not just the fourth), I really like it's flavour.
A magus with 840 xp and Empedoclean Magic can have, effectively, a score of 20 in every Form. {added}
A magus with 1080 xp and Empedoclean Magic can have, effectively, a score of 15 in every Art. {I said Form.}
A magus with 985 xp and Empedoclean Magic can have 40 in Ignem and 10 in every other Form.
Not much better than Affinity in that case, but pushing 4 Forms up is easier than pushing 5 Techniques. It doesn't look that OP.
:mrgreen:
Well, that´s why specialists should have Affinity of course. Anyway, Puissant is +3 in RAW, twice that of a Minor is roughly a Major Virtue(that´s the estimation i use at least and of course it´s not perfect, but usually not too bad)...
On a "usefulness" or "power level" basis, the choice is extremely simple. Empedoclean Magic easily outranks all others. Since i personally like concept characters above powerplaying i cant say what i would pick.
As i said before, it´s not that you´re "horribly wrong" but rather that you´re going a bit too easy on the balancing.
Hmmm, I think I see what you're saying. For a true comparison of the two Virtues, I should compare their difference in power for generalists, but also their difference in power for specialists, and presumably for something in between too. It might be that one Virtue way outshines the other for certain types of character but not others.
No really, what a SHOCKER! Maybe you could explain why he´s talking about 9 Forms then instead of stating the obvious?
Whoever said anything about the "vice versa"?
I like it, but I do wonder about the utility of a potency in self-transformation. Potency relies on having casting tools... but how do you hold onto them when you're suddenly a pillar of fire?
Perhaps a minor focus would make more sense.
Note that this path also leaves open the possibility of transforming into animals. Shape of the Woodland Prowler et al. might just as easily be primary spells. Perhaps instead of "self transformation" the focus/potency should be in elemental transformation; changing oneself or pure elements into other pure elements. Makes the path more focused and tidy.
er... it has a breadth similar to a magical focus, however an important part of the virtue, is the ablity to invent Potent spells which gain additional power using casting items. Admittedly not exactly casting tools, but close enough if you're not sitting with the book next to you.
Well, it has flavor, and, as he must use requisites to transform his equipment and all alongside him, these will be transformed too.
Oh, and I thought:
May study Arts from natural Elemental phenomena as if studying from raw vis
I'd add something like: If he also uses vis (as vis study) while doing this, he gets to add twice the Aura to the die roll.
as anyone : you don't need laboratory to study arts, magic theory or enigmatic wisdom, as long as you have books to read and you can practice enigmatic wisdom without laboratory, as far as I know...
but being able to study elements in the weather phenomenons is very interesting... but not a major virtue (minor like free study or study bonus)
