New Spell Idea to Walk on Water - please critique

If this has been done before please let me know, no need to reinvent the wheel.

The main idea is the result of an encounter where my Muto and Rego specialised Tremere wanted to walk across water to get to someone.

It got me thinking and what I came up with was the following.

Starting with the Rego Aquam guideline to turn a liquid into a solid (I forget the base, it's not terribly important for the theoretical discussion fo the spell though).

Or, use MuAq(He) to turn water into wood.

Range = touch +1 magnitude (I want the water to turn to ice/wood under my feet as I walk)
Duration = diam +1 magnitude (could be Sun if I wanted for anothe rmagnitude)
Target = part +1 magnitude (I'm not turning the whole lake to ice, just the area beneath me)

Please ignore (for now) any issues about keeping balance on the ice or not slipping, we can address those later.

I want to step onto water and when my foot hits the water it creates ice beneath it to support my weight, as I walk I turn more of the water to ice where I step. Ideally, as I walk the ice melts back into water.

This got me to thinking, how does a Touch range Diam Duration spell work? does it:

a) turn an amount of water that I can touch a part of defined by the target to ice upon casting and then keep it as ice for the next 2 mins?

b) create an effect that lasts for the next 2 mins that causes any water I touch to turn to Ice?

For my spell to work as intended b) would have to be a valid interpretation, is it?

Then I run into a problem of volume, the base individual for Aquam is a pool of water 5 paces across and up to 2 paces deep at the centre. using interpretation a) above that is how much of the lake I could turn to ice if the spell just turned an "individual" sized part of the lake to ice upon casting. If b) is a valid interpretation of the spell guidelines what happens as I walk across the lake and the path below me freezes and the total volume of water I have frozen reaches 1 "Individual"? does the spell stop freezing water? does it matter if I have the water unfreeze as I walk away from it so that only 1 "individual" sized piece of the lake is frozen at any one time, like a disc under me?

If none of that will work, could I have it target "self" and work similar to a "ward against rain" that rather than pushes water away from me and keeping me dry freezes water that contacts me?

Any thoughts? I thought it would be a cool idea to cross water and I just want to make sure it makes sense within the hermetic guidelines.

I'm fairly sure that option A is what the rules say but I have no book to quote from.

The personal ward that turns water that touches you into ice would be a solid spell however.

For what you specifically want, the obvious way to do it is to use target of "feel". A Target feel spell effects everything that touches the thing that the spell is cast upon. Sadly, target feel is only available through initiation into the Bjornaer mystery of sensory magic (which of course doesn't prevent other mysteries from giving access to it, it's just that no such mysteries have been detailed as of yet).

Another unambiguously rules legal way to do it would be to add the target "Feel" to hermetic magic as a minor breakthrough using the research rules. The downsides to this are that it takes seasons, you have to deal with the cursed experimental results table (which has never in 23 years ever done me a favor), and you have to get through the somewhat unwieldy breakthrough rules (don't forget to read the errata). By and large this would not be my choice.

A more ambiguously rules legal way to do what you want (and the way that I'd go if for some reason I had a distaste for the personal ward option) is to use a non-standard target. Formulaic spells and enchanted item effects do not have to use the standard hermetic ranges durations and targets (although spontaneous magic does). A non-standard parameter can be used but it is more difficult to use this parameter than to use a standard parameter. No where are there specific rules regarding how much more difficult it is to use a non-standard parameter but the examples in the line that we have to this point all take the closest equivalent parameter and just tack on a magnitude. In other words just make your range touch duration diameter spell as normal and then rather than giving the spell target Part (or is that group?), use target Special and make it one magnitude higher then it would otherwise be.

It has been pointed out to me that there is a spell that does the same thing as I want to do in Guardians of the Forest called "In Christ's Footsteps" Re Aq 5 using base 4 "Control a liquid in a calm but forceful way, such as a fast but constant current", Range Self, Duration Conc (+1), Target Individual.

I feel like Range should be Touch and Target should be Part though (making it lvl 15), assuming you accept that baseline as being sufficient to support a person standing/walking you would cast the spell, step onto the water and control an individual sized part (pool of water 5 paces across and 2 paces deep in the centre) of the lake to form a "disc" under you that is pushing upwards, as you walk you would have the water at the rear of the "disc" flow in front of where you are walking so the "disc" is always centred on you.

Question, would this work as a Diam duration spell, sure it would only last 2 minutes but would the "disc" still move and follow you as you want it to without your concentration actively willing it to go where you are going? I think it should.

As for a ward type effect, there are numerous wards that are ReXx that target a person and apply a Rego effect to any Xx that comes in contact with that person - in the book examples the Rego effect generated seems to always be one of pushing away, Ward vs Wood, Ward vs Water but who is to say that is the only Rego effect you are able to generate that way? They certainly don't use a "feel" range from a mystery so I don't think one would be needed just because you change the Rego effect inflicted on whatever substance. isnt there a spell (maybe it's from an old edition) where you turn any iron that touches you to gold with a duration Sun? that is probably a MuTe spell but the principle should be the same.

That assumes (b) is a valid interpretation. The GotF spell uses the (a) interpretation, which makes it valid.

just ward against it so you hover

Serf's parma but isn't there a low-level Creo Aquam spell that leaves oily footprints for the next several steps where the caster walks? This sounds sort of like the duration-effect you want - something that affects whatever water your feet touch while the spell is in effect.

Actually my idea uses the (a) interpretation, I touch some water and create an effect on a volume of water that equal to an "individual" that is part of a larget body of water, that effect allows me to control that volume of water for the duration of the spell, I have that volume of water support my weight and move with me as I walk.

GotF has range "pers" and target "individual", I don't see how that works since it's a control water spell that isn't targeting water. If anything it's a part (b) interpretation or a variation of the "ward" spells targeting self.

I don't understand what "Serf's Parma" is but that spell almost seems like the footstep part is a cosmetic effect.

While the ward would keep the water from touching you, it wouldn't keep you from falling under the water and being completely submerged (although with a very thin barrier of air keeping you from actually getting wet).

Version A is the valid one.
I will not touch the rest on the discussion with an 11-foot pole :wink:

It can be either one. Look at the first two MuAq spells in the book: Incantation of Putrid Wine clearly uses a) (turns all liquids present within a room at the time of the casting vile and malodorous, and they remain so for the duration of the spell even if taken out of the room, while liquid brought into the room are unaffected). Lungs of the Fish, on the other hand, clearly use b) (turns water into air as it enters your lungs, for the duration of the spell).

There is also already the spell Bridge of Frost, ReAq 30.
Just drop it from Voice to Touch and Sun to Diameter, drop the +1 to Size and +1 to allow various shapes, and you have a level 10 spell like you want it. Or keep the +1 for shaping to make it easier to walk on perhaps and its not exactly bad to use the Sun Duration either. Also just because the upper limit of the base individual is this or that doesnt mean the spell MUST freeze that much.

Should work just fine. However i think "C" is the correct interpretation. C) being that ice forms where you touch it and then melts as normal ice when you no longer touch it.

Watch out though, if you use this in moving water, you´re going to be floating away pretty quickly. :wink:
Even in general, you may want to add an extra magnitude for a basic Rego effect of keeping the ice still(if you merely form some ice under your feet, i can guarantee it will NOT stay still).

Ok, well all ice aside it does look like there is a solution along the lines of what I am looking for in that spell from GotF:

"In Christ's Footsteps" Re Aq 5 using base 4 "Control a liquid in a calm but forceful way, such as a fast but constant current", Range Pers, Duration Conc (+1), Target Individual.

But again, I can't help but feel this spell wasn't created correctly and I don't want to cheese out and spont this as a lvl 5 effect if I shouldn't be able to.

I feel it should be Range Touch, Target Part and even another +1 for "slightly unnatural movement" which brings it to a lvl 20 effect. Can someone explain how it works as only a lvl 5?

I can accept the size being the same as individual because it could either work consistently with "Lungs of the Fish" that Halancar quoted where the spell lasts for the duration and effects all water that meets the requirements (in this case all water under my feet) or it could work as a single volume of water that moves with me across the lake.

The only explanation I can come up with is that this is a kind of personnal range ward.

Not very useful, I'm afraid. This is probably more a legacy that anything else.

I would use a rego corpus

base 4 : moving straight or in one direction on surfaces that cannot support his weight
or base 5 : moving slowly in any direction even if no support

I would take base 5
+1 moving normally
+1 touch
+1 conc
+1 ind

or something like that...

"In Christ's Footsteps" is ReCo, not ReAq. It uses a non-specified Base 4, which is most likely "Move a target slowly straight up, or in one direction over surfaces that cannot support it".

As a Rego Corpus spell, Range Personal and Target Individual are of course appropriate. And that base 4 is tailor made to walk on water. Well, slowly glide on water anyway, but I suppose walking is appropriate too. It doesn't allow someone to run though, that would require a higher base.

Ok, I don't own the book but one of my friends had emailed em the info on the spell, I apologise for the confusion, it really didn't make sense as a ReAq withthose parameters.

So, is my spell reasonable then?

Walk on Water
ReAq 20

Upon casting the next time within the duration the caster touchers a pool of water the water within a 5 pace circle begins to flow upwards providing enough support to stand, walk and run on. For the duration of the spell as the caster steps the circle of water moves to centre itself on the casters feet. The spell ends if the caster places both feet on solid ground. In Andrius of Tremere's version of the spell the top of the water begins to freeze over slightly consistent with his sigil of cold and ice.

Base 4 Touch (+1), Diam (+1), Part (+1), slightly unnatural movement (+1)

Can you guys see any way I could shave this down to a lower level version (while remaining in ReAq or MuAq and in flavour)?