New spell project: Rise the Library from the Ashes

Games Discussion Ars Magica
21

I'm not sure I'd allow rituals to boost quality in every case. For example, the best 'well bound' bonus available is only +1. I'd say that if the book already has that bonus, it's not possible to get a higher bonus.

Also, I think there notion of 'going toward the perfect' is different that 'going toward the platonic form of the general category'. That is, makeing the book a more perfect specimen is really about making it a more perfect specimen of itself... not of books in general. That is to say, it is not the case that as you make 10 different books of differing manufacture (even with the same content) 'closer to perfection' that they become necessarily more similar converging on identical 'perfect books'. Thus, it is possible that a book of a particular manufacture might not be 'well bound' even in its perfect state. That is, some of what 'well bound' means is probably characteristic in the particluar method of binding, and a 'perfect' example of a method that doesn't normally produce 'well bound' might also not be 'well bound'. I suppose that it is possible that you could improve such a book such that improving 'the crispness' of the paper, the quality of the leather, etc. might result in 'well bound' even if the particular construction wouldn't normally produce 'well bound'... that is the particular construction method would only produce a 'well bound' book if the materials were 'perfect'.

IMS, I'm keeping track of 'damage' to books from use. Normally this is taken care off by the resident book-binder / scribe, but I can definitely see a ritual 'buying back' reductions in quality due to damage.

22

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

From the article

"Aristotle's causes
According to the philosophical system of Aristotle and his followers, there are four causes or reasons that describe a thing; these causes can be analyzed to get to a solution to the paradox. The formal cause or form is the design of a thing, while the material cause is the matter that the thing is made of. The "what-it-is" of a thing, according to Aristotle, is its formal cause; so the Ship of Theseus is the same ship, because the formal cause, or design, does not change, even though the matter used to construct it may vary with time. In the same manner, for Heraclitus's paradox, a river has the same formal cause, although the material cause (the particular water in it) changes with time, and likewise for the person who steps in the river.

"Another of Aristotle's causes is the end or final cause, which is the intended purpose of a thing. The Ship of Theseus would have the same end, that is, transporting Theseus, even though its material cause would change with time. The efficient cause is how and by whom a thing is made, for example, how artisans fabricate and assemble something; in the case of the Ship of Theseus, the workers who built the ship in the first place could have used the same tools and techniques to replace the planks in the ship.

"This probably won't do as a solution to the problem, though, since the material cause does change over time, and we have been shown no reason to privilege one of the causes over another in the determination of continuity of identity."

So yes, since Ars Magica's magic system is based on the Aristotelian paradigm, you could reform the books from their damage state to their intended final form.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle# ... our_Causes

You may want a Marinita to help find the final cause, ie the purpose of the book... which will most likely have been remembered in the dreams of those that read it.

23

Creating a book or making a book more perfect affects the BOOK not what information is stored in it.
Otherwise you´re using magic to create something that didnt exist in a way that requires the magic to be intelligent.

As a simple comparison, while it may be part of essential nature that a book has information in it, the specifics of the information is NOT part of the essential nature of the book.

That makes absolutely no sense at all. In both cases you´re adding something without effort.

You´re looking at it from the wrong direction here.
If a book is in poor condition, then it gets penalties, its basic condition is expected to be such that it doesnt impede using it.

This i would call the exception, that of course you can use ritual magic to improve the book if it doesnt start top-notch.

24

Yeah, that's what I am saying. Things like Well Bound, Well Scribed, etceteras. If the book isn't optimal to begin with, ritual creo magic can bring it closer to an optimal state. You can't make the actual content clearer, just improve the package.

25

"the BOOK not what information is stored in it. Otherwise you´re using magic to create something that didnt exist in a way that requires the magic to be intelligent.".

The ink did physically exist. I don't think that is in dispute. Not only that, but in it's physical existence, it had specific shapes. The question is "How does 'information' relate to those shapes? Actually, the particular physical arrangement of ink is just that, physical. It takes a mind to perceive and interpret the physical arrangement as having meaning beyond it's physicality. I think this is true even for medieval paradigm. I think that there is a false equivalence here I think. Ink does not equal information. Shape is a physical characteristic. Observation of the characteristic could convey information. Shapes of words and sentences could contain lots of information, but the shape of DIREWOLF75 also contains information... about DIREWOLF75. Thus observing a statue of DIREWOLF75 conveys to one information about DIREWOLF75. Thus, if we were to extend your idea to logical further conclusions... paintings could never be restored by Creo, neither memories, nor sculpture. Indeed, you could never restore a physical thing that represents something else. You couldn't restore a broken sanctum marker.

Why wouldn't the physical form of the book include the ink on it's pages? If Creo can restore the particular details of a physical form, why not the ink?

"In both cases you´re adding something without effort. "

The effort is the spell and the something is a physical aspect that, were a mundane to do it, would also create a bonus. If it can be done by a mundane craftsman, and if a perfect version of the same crafted item could be 'well bound', then it follows that making the item more perfect could get there too.

26

Well, no. Restoring those things would require a finesse roll, as in fact, the game requires. The mind in question is the Mage's, magic not having a mind. The trick is, what kind of finesse roll would be needed for restoring a book the mage has never seen, which is the point of this tread.....

27

My understanding is that finesse would be required if using Rego to somehow do the restoration and that restoration with Creo isn't a finesse issue. Are there other healing or restoration spells that require finesse rolls as an example that I'm forgetting? I thought the point was that 'Creo's' ability to 'tap into' what the perfect form is negates the necessity for a finesse roll (as contrasted by the nature of Rego to 'do as directed' and not anything else). The 'state' is one derived from this innate connection to the perfect, not one's interpretation.

28

Sir, I refer you to page 60 of Societates (a lovely book that should be part of every gamer's collection). "When creating artificial objects, the same level of Finesse is required as when using Rego to make them from raw materials". Also, page 62. "Automatic Failure: Characters automatically fail the Finesse roll if they attempt to create objects that they cannot imagine" (such as when you have No Idea what the book was before it was destroyed maybe?).

29

But no Finesse roll is required when creating items ex nihilo?

So, your Arts have to be high enough to create/fix the book as if you were going to write it. If you could have written it you could create/fix it because you can imagine what it would say?

I wonder (again, I don't have my books with me at work) that magi can create animals, sometimes magical animals, faeires, etc, that have skills the magus does not have, say a cobbling gremlin or something. The magic is creating something of which the magus has no knowledge, cobbling (or whatever skill the beastie might have and the magus doesn't have). If you could talk to that created beastie, it might even teach you that skill/ability. How is that different from creating a book above a magus' Art? We're still creating something the magus couldn't do on his own.

Ramblin' Rich

30

The whole point of this tread started with a hope of repairing books from a dead convent, that the knowledge would not be lost. I would put that under the "can't imagine" category. If you want to allow your players to creo books of Adamic into their library, it's your game, but I can't imagine it being fun for long. As to the creation of Faeries, the ball is still out on whether "those spells" actually create Faeries, or merely summon them, and Faeries as a rule don't have skills, they "pretend" to have skills, and fake it with faerie magic. I'm not aware of a spell that lets you create/summon a faerie with real skills. So not a very good counterpoint. One more point, if your position were correct, why would any Magnus (say House Vert) learn any craft skill, when finesse replaces all crafts skills, as you seem to believe?

31

I took the point to be an exploration of paradigm and Creo rules with regard to books and the information therein.

To your other point: "When creating artificial objects, the same level of Finesse is required as when using Rego to make them from raw materials"

We're not talking about creating anything. We're talking about healing something that already exists. I take this to mean the sentence isn't applicable as read (YMMV). (I'm starting to sound like CH).

' "Automatic Failure: Characters automatically fail the Finesse roll if they attempt to create objects that they cannot imagine" (such as when you have No Idea what the book was before it was destroyed maybe?). '

Same issue... not creation. I think this was put in cannon because of the relationship between Creo and the realm of forms. I take it to mean that in order to utilize Creo's connection to the realm of forms, you have to know (at least somewhat) what your looking for in the realm of forms. If you have a part of an actually already preexisting thing, you use the object's (or person's, animal's, etc.) own connection to the realm of forms. Thus the prerequisite 'somewhat of an idea' of what you're looking for is covered because the object's nature informs the spell. Without the preexisting connection (such as creating something from scratch), your imagination would have to 'inform' the spell, thus the quoted restriction.

I've actually run sagas in the past where I've allowed this kind of 'ressurection'. It actually was a pretty good story event because it took a lot of cooperation from may sodales and covenfolk to pull it off. The opportunity to do this kind of thing is rare anyway. I tend to run in such a way that I don't restrict players. With the rare exception, I don't tend to worry about play balance as much in a story oriented game because as long as I have enough tools at my disposal to turn whatever the players are trying to accomplish into a good story, that's fine with me regardless of any 'abuses'. I used to worry about such things and then I noticed that whatever happened, it was my job to twist it to the story's advantage.

32

Thumper,
You are on the exact same page as I, and I admire your logic.
That, and any man that quotes Seneca is a.g. by me :wink:

33

Thanks Mark,

I often find that the application of logic is a necessary thing in Ars because the medieval paradigm relies on such a different set of premises. Thus, "can / how would you do x?" frequently becomes an exercise of starting at paradigm premises and following logic to the conclusion.

I have often said it'd be a good thing if Logic (symbolic or otherwise) was a required course in high school.

34

I also agree this is within the purvue of Creo magic.

To DireWolf's point, I would disagree that the "information" stored in the book is separate from the book. I would agree that the spell might require some casting requisites in order to function correctly such as herbam for books with plant based inks/payrus, etc if you want to get that complicated. However once the book is created and the pages penned it is a book not vellum + ink. I am no medieval scholar, so if any of you are you can correct me, but it seems as if they saw things a bit more holistically.

If we had to know how exactly magic affected everything informationally, then the majority of effects would not be able to work, such as Healing magics. The magi with a CrCo spell doesnt need Medicine or Chirugy in order to cast that spell, in fact if they had a high enough Creo they wouldnt even need corpus... yet the spell still works.