new spell(quich the thirst of man)

quinch the thirst of man effect-you create water inside the stomuch of the target
does this meet with everyons expectations?

One query around the nutrition provided by magical water. But given the Sun duration, presumably the water has been digested and passed out again before the spell wears off?

I would assume that the water disappears, even if you have digested it. So you become thirsty again. otherwise it would be easy for covenants to have Moon duration spells for food and the like and simply ignore the problem of feeding their covenfolk by plain use of mid-term spells. This is not the case, so the spells and their effects cannot be permanent.



You might want to check the various Creo Guidelines.
Aquam : page 121

Herbam : page 136

see page 112 for the info on Creo Rituals (under Momentary)

But the reason I'm not convinced about this wholly is the example of the magical animal which eats real food and exists for a year leaving a corpse when the spell duration ends.

In a similar way (extrapolating somewhat!), magical food that has been eaten ought to leave real excrement. And if it has done so, it will have been through the digestive system. And creo always creates a 'perfect' object, which means it wont produce water or food that merely looks like it, it will also have all of the characteristics of said item - including nutrition.

So as long as the spell duration is long enough for the consumables to be both fully absorbed and then converted into appropriate bodily substance, I would think that the duration ceases to be relevant. What I'm not sure about is how long this might take, and a duration of Moon might be necessary.

I think the important part is the reading of the word "temporarily" - whether that is a strict hermetic meaning (as in non-permanent) or a somewhat looser meaning, which is my interpretation. In terms of food, however, I'm clearly running anti the official rules and make no apology for doing so - I suspect the basis of this rule lies in the Covenant and the desire to make Magi reliant on external resources.

I suspect the best magical solution, however, is to forget about Animal / Herbam / Aquam and go for Creo Corpus to make a hungry and thirsty person hungry and thirsty no more - unless this falls foul of the game-balance driven Law of Fatigue (or whatever it's called!). Or you could just delay hunger and thirst, but better make the duration no more than Sun otherwise the character may find themselves in quick decline once the duration runs out!! How about that as a replacement for a slow-acting poison?!

We have already had a huge discussion on this topic , but some more clever person will have to find the thread.

The Animal is sustained by magic and is eating real food that provides nutrition.
The guidelines are not totally clear for all Creo , but the ones for Herbam and Aquam are as quoted from the book.
For any Creo object to be considered real a momentary ritual using vis is used.
The object is created by magic , but it is no longer magic in and of itself.

In other words, the magic horse has transformed food into horse, just like a magic fire would transform peasants into ashes.

I like your way of thinking Fruny :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:


As some people have experienced I am very opinionated on the issue of Creo non-ritual magic. :smiling_imp:

I think that there are many arguments against allowing based on magic theory, game balance and the integrity of the setting, so in short I am against allowing non-ritual food or water to nourish.

The arguments pro and con have been discussed very thorougly on the forum and instead of repeating it all I will link to the thread covering the discussion to its fullest. It primarily discussed food, but water is also addresses, but in any regard I would say that they are the same.

I would advice anyone with interest in this field to have a look at it as many people have given their view on it from various positions. If there's any comments after having read the thread I would love to discuss it further. :smiley:

As a sidenote I'll add that contrary to my strong opinion against non-ritual nourishment or hydration, I am actually in favour of allowing non-ritual air to sustain you. This is because it is not toppling the setting -you can't sell, trade or monopolize air- and because there is evidence to suggest that medieval thinkers didn't conceive air as supplying anything to the body (as modern science do with oxygen), but rather breathing as something that allowed the body to pass excess bodyheat and to keep the four humours balanced. In other words that the operative need of breathing is the exhalation.

hmm, I think I would allow it BUT! if the duration wears of al effects of the eaten food also wear of. When I read the horse example I concluded that it takes a full year for food to leave your entire system. Thus when I eat a month of food that all will be vanished at the first full moon, I'll be as if I hadn't eaten anything for the whole month. The problem can be solved with spell's of duration year ergo, rituals.

Another solution would be to be generous with the warping points. After all, when you eat and drink magic, you sort of become magic.

I think we need to post this discussion to the Berklist and also to Andrew Gronosky for a FAQ topic.

Not really. it seems like a HR if you want vis-less magical food to provide nourishment. In the rules it clearly states that it does not provide sustenance.



The only clear Creo statements are the Herbam and Aquam ones quoted.
Non-vis created Air still lets you breathe.
The question is not "if it nourishes" , so much as "does it sustain you?" much like non-vis healing suspends wounds.

this spell was only for emergincies anyway.
the effect was suppost to remove dehidration temprarally.