Newbie Solicitation for Advice (#3?)

[ExarKun]

By 5th edition RAW, each mastery level reduces the number of botch dice by 1. Casting this spell in a +0 aura and rolling a 0 is 12 botch dice (one for each pawn of vis spent on the spell), and most casters are probably casting in an aura so add a few more. The only way you're going to see this down to 0 botch dice is when it is cast by a Mercurian ritualist who has a decent gold cord strength or cautious sorcerer as well as some time invested in mastery.

This is not true.

In a peaceful situation, a mastered spell never rolls botch dice on his stress die if a 0 occurs.

At the opposite of formulaic, ritual use always a stress die. That doesn't mean that they are always stressful.

[gerg]

@ExarKun

In a peaceful situation, a mastered spell never rolls botch dice on his stress die if a 0 occurs.

True but a little misleading: in a peaceful situation (when using a simple die roll*), there is never a chance of botch regardless of whether the spell is mastered.

• As pointed out by Cuch and Exar, this parenthetical comment is wrong.

@ExarKun

At the opposite of formulaic, ritual use always a stress die. That doesn't mean that they are always stressful.

The definition of a stress die includes the possibility of botching, so whether the characters are feeling stress or not is irrelevant: rituals always include a chance of a botch.

[Tellus]

@Jabir

I've been staying out of the discussion about characteristic increasing rituals because we've been through this argument here before and I don't really have anything to say that I haven't said before. But since we're still talking about it, what the heck...

Direwolf is right that these magics are quite doable and very cost effective according to RAW. Yet, they never seem to appear in the Ars Magic world as seen through published supplements. So we seem to have a conflict between the technical rules and the game world as envisioned. Some will want to chose the rules in this conflict. I would instead choose to retain the spirit of the game world and change the rules.

I have two reasons for this. The first one is general power level. Magi are already overly powerful for my tastes. This is just a matter of taste though; there's nothing inherantly better about either a high power or low power game. My other reason is that I'd prefer not to roleplay superhumans, either PCs or NPCs, in this game. Once you have a Order made up of the supremely intelligent, or communicative, or awesome (i.e., presence), it becomes hard to play them as normal flawed human beings. I want crotchety old wizards who get into misunderstandings and have trouble getting along, not fantastically beautiful, understanding, and social demigods. That's for other games.

Excellently put. I second this fully and whole heartedly.
For those who would think otherwise from my above post, please understand that I was arguing not about the boosters themselves, but purely about the artificial restrictions that some people were suggesting.

[ExarKun]

@gerg

@ExarKun

In a peaceful situation, a mastered spell never rolls botch dice on his stress die if a 0 occurs.

True but a little misleading: in a peaceful situation (when using a simple die roll), there is never a chance of botch regardless of whether the spell is mastered.

Again wrong: mastered spells always use a stress die, even in peaceful situation.

[Cuchulainshound]

@ExarKun

@gerg

@ExarKun

In a peaceful situation, a mastered spell never rolls botch dice on his stress die if a 0 occurs.

True but a little misleading: in a peaceful situation (when using a simple die roll), there is never a chance of botch regardless of whether the spell is mastered.

Again wrong: mastered spells always use a stress die, even in peaceful situation.

No, Gerg is right (even if you are too) - see page 81, "Formulaic Magic" -

"If the maga is not under any pressure, it is a simple die"
What this means is that all those casual "daily" utility (formulaic!) spells - lighting candles every night, or removing dirt, or scrying on the Duke - no chance of self-destruction, even if unmastered, no matter how many times you cast them.

Once mastered, it's always a stress die, but with rules which mean you cannot botch since there are no botch dice if relaxed-
"...Mastered spells are always cast with a stress die, but if the mage is relaxed there are no botch dice..." (p 86, last par)
What this means is that the Mastered Caster regains a chance at an open-ended roll to attain high Casting Totals, but still not the usual chance of self-destruction - all good.

So, in short:

Unmastered Formulaic:
no stress: Simple Die (+1 to +10)
Stress: Stress Die (+0 (or botch?) to +9 or doubled)

Mastered Formulaic:
no stress: Stress Die, no botch dice (+0 to +9 or doubled)
Stress: Stress Die, -# botch dice = Mastery level (+0 (or (less chance to) botch?) to +9 or doubled)

[Tellus]

@Cuchulainshound

Once mastered, it's always a stress die, but with rules which mean you cannot botch since there are no botch dice if relaxed-
"...Mastered spells are always cast with a stress die, but if the mage is relaxed there are no botch dice..." (p 86, last par)
What this means is that the Mastered Caster regains a chance at an open-ended roll to attain high Casting Totals, but still not the usual chance of self-destruction - all good.

Funny thing is, you seem to be agreeing with ExarKun

[ExarKun]

Cuchulain:

: in a peaceful situation (when using a simple die roll),

That is wrong. Thus my answer. And as spot Tellus, you are exactly saying what i say

[DIREWOLF75]

@ndkid

If your position was "according to RAW, one can get to Com + 5", you're quite right, I agree with you in the entirety. I was under the impression that "relatively easy" set the bar higher than "is possible".

But, you're right, I put words in your mouth by assuming "relatively easy" meant "trivial". Instead, I should ask: relative to what?

Relative to how RAW presents "average" power gain and Vis availability i guess is the rough answer.
I´ve tended to be in somewhat Vis poor games(especially after i changed so that any lab work uses Vis or gets penalised(or get a small bonus from using extra, making Vis richness much more desirable and noticeable), because even with low gains Vis was still stored up in big chunks) and the "worst" would be that it took some time to fix.
This is one of the reasons why i changed Permanent to raise the magnitude of spells somewhat(and raised the Vis cost severely to get Permanence), because it seemed "less than optimal" for a permanent spell to be 20 levels lower than one for Year duration...

[DIREWOLF75]

House Mercere justification? "God don't want you to be better, otherwise, he would have done you". It also ensure you that the Church remain distant, which would not be the case if all magi had +5 in the order (which is easily doable: ritual boundary version of int, and cast it at the ritual gathering, for the cost of 1 pawn of vis by spell casting of such spell... you are beneficiary! You may even say: free casting up to +5 for anyone helping you in lab or offering apprentice to help... suddenly you have 5 magi willing to help who send their apprentice and you only need 50 xp in leadership for a neat +40 if the apprentice are good... which you would decided, sufficient to invent the spell in one or two seasons whatever is your labtotal)
By this way, I have a magus who developed this kind of spell. He only asked for 1 pawns for each ritual casting (mastered, so without any risk). I ended up with enough vis to buy anything I wanted (especially books), and everyone attending our tribunal ended up with +5 in every characteristics); then Archangel Michael came with 100 of his Aspects, and the Rome tribunal was destroyed by God. End of game...).

Exarkun, i would NEVER allow this kind of spell to have anything but Target Individual. I consider that going severe munchkin.

It might take him a few seasons - years even, if he needed to work on hs labtotal first. But it can be done without even knowing that the Mercere have already have magics.

Dont forget that you can develop the low level version much more easily first(because getting the one for +5 right away is going to be somewhat of a strain, both to develop and in Vis for Casting), preferably the highest possible that you can get in 1 or 2 seasons of work(unless a major specialist, usually thats the level 35 one). The similar spellbonus makes a BIG difference when you create higher level ones.
Preferably, you find a NPC or PC that is either a Creo specialist, or one with CrMe specialisation. Unless they´re young they will likely have 20+ in both Arts(or 30+/5+ for a Creo spec.), with some MT( 5-8 ), Int(+3 ), familiar(4-9), decent lab(3-9), ok aura(3-5) and your PC as assistant(6-12), that will often reach a lab total of 70-80 without problems.

The problem is that they are momentary rituals. If you make them yearly rituals most of the problem of abuse gets mostly solved. You get plenty of warping and it has an end date after which you return to your natural form.

Xavi

Problem then is that they become utterly useless. Raising +4 to +5 would then be a Level 75 ritual. That kind of vis expense and the warping for raising a stat more than by +1, and just the much greater difficulty in developing the spell... No, at that point it has no reason to even exist at all.

But many of the restriction people wish to put on them are just silly and arbitrary, which is all my argument was about.

Yup, that was a big part of my point as well.

In sagas I've seen, the 'what if we botch?' is typically the reason people don't abuse these spells. One or two castings? Maybe. Boosting all stats to 5? That's just asking for trouble.

Oh yes. Which is why only relatively few actually DO up stats a lot.

[Xavi]

Warp yourself for 5 years to write the best summa ever. The stop being so communicative. How is that useless?

But well, them being useless is a fairly positive result IMS, so I would buy it. YMDV

Cheers,
Xavi

[Cuchulainshound]

@EK

: in a peaceful situation (when using a simple die roll),

That is wrong. Thus my answer. And as spot Tellus, you are exactly saying what i say

Um... no.

What exactly do you think is "wrong" with it? Doesn't specify Mastered Spell, so I see only RAW re any standard Formulaic casting.

@gerg

in a peaceful situation (when using a simple die roll), there is never a chance of botch...

Nothing "wrong" about that statement. In a peaceful situation with standard formulaic spells, you use a simple die, and so there is zero chance of botch. True = not wrong.

In a peaceful situation, ...there is never a chance of botch regardless of whether the spell is mastered...

And nothing "wrong" with that statement either. In a peaceful situation, even when mastered there is no chance of botch. True = not wrong.

Now, combining the two together does confuse the dice thing up a bit, but it's still not "wrong", just not as clear as it could be.

(English: The idiot bastard child of incestuous European cousins.)

[ExarKun]

in a peaceful situation (when using a simple die roll), there is never a chance of botch...

Why is this wrong?

• ritual always have a stress die thus may botch, even in peaceful situation (unless mastered, of course)
• peaceful situation is not using a simple die roll, since mastered spell always use a stress die, even in peaceful situation
• non fatiguing spell casting do not use a die roll (neither simple nor stress) in a peaceful situation
• in a peaceful situation, casting a spontaneous spell needs a stress die.

Choose your reason .

[Tugdual]

@Kid Gloves

By 5th edition RAW, each mastery level reduces the number of botch dice by 1. Casting this spell in a +0 aura and rolling a 0 is 12 botch dice (one for each pawn of vis spent on the spell), and most casters are probably casting in an aura so add a few more. The only way you're going to see this down to 0 botch dice is when it is cast by a Mercurian ritualist who has a decent gold cord strength or cautious sorcerer as well as some time invested in mastery.

Most caster would be in a magical aura which has no impact on botch dice ("Aura ... botch ... foreign realm." ArM5 p 183, realm interaction).

And there this crazy last sentence on p 86 "Mastered ... relaxed ... no botch dice". The only way out of madness is to decide that rituals are never relaxed.

BTW, maybe the Ritual Casting Total should be errata'd to be "... + Stress Die" instead of "... + Die Roll"

[Cuchulainshound]

That has been suggested before - (may even be erratta'd? I know I use it, forget if it's "canon" or no)

@ExarKun

• ritual always have a stress die thus may botch, even in peaceful situation (unless mastered, of course)

No one (except you, just now) is talking about rituals.

@ExarKun

• peaceful situation is not using a simple die roll, since mastered spell always use a stress die, even in peaceful situation

He wasn't (necessarily) talking about mastered spells.

• non fatiguing spell casting do not use a die roll (neither simple nor stress) in a peaceful situation

No one ( except you , just now) is talking about spont spells (see rituals, above)

• in a peaceful situation, casting a spontaneous spell needs a stress die.

(see rituals, above)

I'm done with this.

[Tellus]

@Cuchulainshound

That has been suggested before - (may even be erratta'd? I know I use it, forget if it's "canon" or no)

@ExarKun

• ritual always have a stress die thus may botch, even in peaceful situation (unless mastered, of course)

No one (except you, just now) is talking about rituals.

Really? I could have sworn that rather a lot of us were talking about Instant Creo spells with lasting effect (making them rituals) vs spells that rather quickly pass level 50, making them - again - rituals.
Did I miss something?

[Cuchulainshound]

Sigh...

No one in the cited exchange* is talking about Rituals...

(* Gerg, EK and myself)

I'm sure someone, somewhere is talking about Rituals.

Better?

out. (no, really.)

[Shin]

Not to throw any fuel on this particular debate, but...

First, I thought Mages were "native" to magic auras, and therein did not incur extra botch dice. Foreign realms would be Divine, Infernal and Faerie.

Second, if talking about mastering CrMe rituals invented by the player (implying no mastery lab text is available), how exactly would they do that? The only method I have found for mastering a spell without a lab text is through "practice", requiring repeated casting of the spell over and over during a season. That would seem prohibitively expensive for a ritual.

[ExarKun]

You may practice the spell and not cast it. Nothing against that in the rules.

[Tellus]

@Shin

Not to throw any fuel on this particular debate, but...

The Ars magica community has a longstanding tradition of encouraging the use of ReIg wards or asbestos suits. You should have seen Ber(zer)k List in ye olden days.

First, I thought Mages were "native" to magic auras, and therein did not incur extra botch dice. Foreign realms would be Divine, Infernal and Faerie.

They are. Lots of people forget that detail.

Second, if talking about mastering CrMe rituals invented by the player (implying no mastery lab text is available), how exactly would they do that? The only method I have found for mastering a spell without a lab text is through "practice", requiring repeated casting of the spell over and over during a season. That would seem prohibitively expensive for a ritual.

Yeah. It's ... (almost) generally accepted by most (some, anyway) board members that you can practice rituals without actually fully casting them.
Going through the motions, so to speak.
Personally, I always so this as practicing "this bit" repeatedly, before moving on to the next bit. Kinda like how many people learn how to dance.
After all, rituals consist on no less than a full hour of words and motions - there has to be some variation in this

[Shin]

@Tellus

Second, if talking about mastering CrMe rituals invented by the player (implying no mastery lab text is available), how exactly would they do that? The only method I have found for mastering a spell without a lab text is through "practice", requiring repeated casting of the spell over and over during a season. That would seem prohibitively expensive for a ritual.

Yeah. It's ... (almost) generally accepted by most (some, anyway) board members that you can practice rituals without actually fully casting them.
Going through the motions, so to speak.
Personally, I always so this as practicing "this bit" repeatedly, before moving on to the next bit. Kinda like how many people learn how to dance.
After all, rituals consist on no less than a full hour of words and motions - there has to be some variation in this
[/quote]
I see your point, more or less, but on the other hand, I'm not sure I'd be cool with letting someone "master" a ritual they had never cast. That seems... A bit odd. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I look at that as someone doing a code review and then declaring the code bug free without ever running it, let alone exploring use cases or edge cases. Mastery to me seems to be about knowing the edge cases as well as the use cases, therein reducing the chance of unexpected problems cropping up (botches). Maybe if I was a chemist, I'd have a different perspective 8).