See how important the Tremere are now? No Tremere, the Order collapses into chaos.
Remember it's not the Holy Roman Empire and Byzantium... there was no Byzantium, they were the Roman Empire.
1 Like
Well.. 
Sloppy of me, you are right. The correct name is Roman Empire.
In such a case, which ideas championed by the Tremere would become socially ostracized in the Order, instead of druidism ? Hierarchy ? Atheism ? Latin/Christian exclusivism ?
A less structured Order, more sympathetic to paganism ?
A second war is the outcome I regard as most unlikely. A Schism War that casts out the Tremere already settles the conflict between Latin and Not-Latin Houses, since the place of the latter in the order is placed beyond question and Latin bigotry becomes taboo.
This is a rather more plausible outcome. Which could be the casus belli ? And the features of such a conflict ?
The Order against the Church 
So the relative decline of the Bjornaer is prevented and they are a little less paranoid vs. the other Houses and Mystery Cults. However, I doubt this would lead to a large-scale conflict with Christian Europe. The Danish king's forces are swatted and go home with tails between their legs. Many times, the forces of Christian kings were defeated by pagans or muslims, this likely gets drown in the background noise of history.
Seeing magical resistance, the Danish king recruits his court astrologers and alchemists, some of whome have preserved the secrets of Rune Magic. A resurgent Order of Odin supports the Danes and obliterates the Bjornaer magi.
The latter for certain. Maybe even agressively. Though that would lead to trouble with Flambeau and maybe Jerbiton.
Mayhaps. Like always it would depend on your set and setting. If we assume your pov from here (forum.atlas-games.com/viewtopic. ... a63400256e) the divine might even loose and a powerful pagan pantheon might rise to shape the mythical world anew.
Btw my pov about the divine in ars magica is similar: Not absolute but in power, relativ power that is. In the end this solves a lot of trouble and inconsistencies for me.
I would just like to share that we may be very wrong indeed about the lack of monetary trade during medieval times. Or at least that's what several of the authors I'm currently studying in High Medieval History I are currently debating, alongside the controversial idea of a "barbarian invasion" and the Great Dominion.
I for one was very surprised, and have been enjoying the classes very much.
Hi,
I'll run with this, starting from the Ex Misc arriving to vote for Diedne. That's a reasonable point of divergence.
The Tremere, not being stupid, realize that they are outvoted and back down.... officially. But individual Wizard Wars continue.
Because the Schism War never happens, House Guernicus never gains the power it now has. The Order is more chaotic.
This spillage has a profound effect on mundane history. A more chaotic Normandy Tribunal means that Normandy is more chaotic. William the Bastard does not consolidate his rule and organization sufficiently to mount an effective invasion, especially since magi in Britain feel more comfortable intervening against an unwanted interloper. It's an ugly battle though. The pope approves of the invasion to bring England more in line with the party line, but the locals can bring their own influence with the Divine to bear. Magi fight on both sides, and William is repulsed.
The First Crusade never gets off the ground because Norman and Frankish knights are way too busy at home. Without a First Crusade, there isn't a second, third or fourth. Because the crusaders never put pressure on the Saracens during the 12th century, Constantinople remained vulnerable and was sacked by Saladin in 1187.
Flambeau magi pursue their own interests--fighting either against Diedne or against other diabolists, by which I mean their traditional Saracen enemies in Iberia. Because the Order is fractured, charges of interfering with mundanes are impossible to sustain. The Reconquista is going well and only the kingdom of Granada remains in Muslim hands.
How do things stand now? The Order stands on the verge of a real Schism War. Jerbiton, Tremere and Flambeau are clearly on one side; Diedne, Bjornaer and some Ex Misc traditions are clearly on the other. Complicating matters, everyone knows about the Order of Hermes. Opinions within the Church regarding what to do about it are conflicted. The Diedne are clearly a problem that should be cleansed, other magi are disturbingly pagan, yet others are obviously Christian, with appropriate sympathies. Should the Order as a whole be condemned as foul sorcerers, or should a joint Crusade be declared against pagans and heretics? And, with the power of God-fearing magi on their side, if it can be allowed that perhaps some magic is natural rather than sorcerous, once the pagans at home are dealt with, perhaps Jerusalem and Constantinople can be liberated? So far there has been only talk.
Meanwhile, the Diedne have not been idle. They and their allies are supporting Lithuania and other pagan kingdoms under threat, thereby decreasing the threat.
Europeans are less developed than they would be in real history. They did not spend time in Saracen lands and did not bring back what they didn't learn there. Sea and land trade routes are more dangerous, and the development of a strong, centralized monarchy has been inhibited.
Anyway,
Ken
3 Likes
So you admit that the Diedne were diabolist
Hi,
I am representing a Flambeau perspective
Anyway,
2 Likes
Thing is, without the first crusades, much of the man power and monies lost by the inept Byzantine involvements in the crusades would not have been spent. Leaving the men + monies at home.
Concessions to allow the venetians freedom of trade would never be needed. Further helping the dying nation.
Who would Saladin be without the Enemy? Without the need to retake anything?
1 Like
Hi,
If Saladin was around, why not Saladin? The Enemy was there: Muslims had been trying to take Constantinople for 500 years before him. Not retake, but take. If not him, I'd make up someone else. No biggie, but it's going to be someone.
There is a general problem with alternate history: Once small changes are introduced, there is no reason to assume that anyone born in the next generation corresponds to real history.
If there are magi in Normandy, no William the Conqueror. Verditii in Italy? Different popes. Jerbiton in Constantinople? No Saladin.
Everyone likes inserting real historical figures into their alternate history, though, so I'll join the fun.
Anyway,
Ken
1 Like
This is not a challenge to your reasoning, but a simple question: why do you put Bjornaer and Ex Misc with the Diedne? Canonically (and, fair enough, we are decidedly non-canon here) Ex Misc was principally anti-Diedne during the Schism, since many of the British/Irish traditions held a long-standing grudge against them. It was a feature of previous editions to consider Ex Misc to be nature-loving pagans and basically Diedne in disguise, but the 5e form of the house is quite different. Of the traditions we know about in the House, three are specifically connected to a Divine religion (Sahir, Karaites, Donatores), one is a pacifist (Pharmacopoeians), one is a strong supporter of the Order (Pralicians), and many of the others are interested only in their magics. Of those traditions named, only the Witches of Thessaly, the Damadh Duidas, and maybe the Cult of Orpheus are involved in paganism specifically. (Indeed, prior to the formation of Ex Misc, it is stated that hedge wizards were recruited into House Diedne; presumably specifically if it was a pagan tradition. Does this make Diedne a Societas? Possibly.)
With respect to the Bjornaer, they have an ancestor cult, but this explicitly does not interfere with religious beliefs. As mentioned in HoH:MC, many Bjornaer integrate their cultic teachings in a religious framework - they do not deny the pre-eminence of the Divine, and while they might be considered by the church to hold heretical beliefs at worst, at best they are simply non-standard Christians. One of the members of the Bjornaer Council - the head of Clan Sirnas - is a committed Christian.
I'm not sure therefore that it is a given that these two houses would join with Diedne. I think it is likely that elements of both houses would join, but not necessarily a sizeable fraction. I think portions of other houses might well join with Diedne if it became a religious divide of Pagan vs Christian. The Titanoi of Tytalus, subcults of Merinita, the neo-Mercurians of Mercere, the Mithraic cultists (mainly Flambeau), and several other mystery cults might well side with the Diedne to avoid persecution by 'crusader' magi.
Cheers,
Mark
1 Like
Tremere clearly IF they retain their grudges yes(and in an alternate where they are close to destruction for meddling with the code, the end result could just as well go the way of "we must distance ourselves from the mistakes of past that almost ruined us" as "we must destroy those bastards!".
Neither Flambeau nor Jerbiton would be so monolithic and certain though.
I doubt this assumption. Just as the moslems are not innocent victims of the crusades, they are also not the only potential source of "enlightement" or whatever you want to call it.
And the "no-crusades" is also unlikely. Even if they would likely start and happen differently.
Tremere would be closer.
Been very interesting in the last few years with new knowledge and speculation about so called "Celts".
How it might be the Roman attack on Gaul that was indeed the "big barbarian invasion"...
Hi,
I might be missing something, but I had a different impression from reading True Lineage, about the way all those Ex Misc sigils could have changed the vote against Diedne, had they arrived.
Indeed, having chosen precisely that as my Point of Departure, Ex Misc is already placed as not anti-Diedne. Once that vote occurred, those magi vested in the issue would tally up their allies and enemies and act accordingly. House Tremere, for example, would reasonably classify anyone who voted for Diedne to be antagonists that should either be coopted, suborned or defeated. House Diedne, in turn would form stronger bonds with their supporters. After two centuries of such treatment, a mild tendency is deepened into a standing tradition.
I don't see EM as Diedne in disguise. The Diedne might not be good guys, they might be even worse than the Tremere thought they were. (Conversely, the Diedne tradition might be a kind of Holy Magic, snuffed out by the Latin magi, the same way that Rome crucified Christ and burnt the Temple. And killed those poor Dwooids. (Would a Star Wars/Ars Magica crossover feature druids rather than droids?)) And EM is hardly unified.
Still, the diverse EM traditions tend to be disparaged by the mainstream Houses. Even Pralix's lineage is all about preserving the diversity of Ex Misc. If those magi voted to uphold Diedne, as they did in my PoD, it might be said to have been on the general principle of "we don't want to be next" rather than "we are all Diedne." To anyone who hates Diedne, these magi thereby become "the friend of my enemy.
considers
That's more than reasonable. During the two centuries since the Schism War didn't happen, there's all kinds of room for alliances to shift. That could be more interesting, with the Order slouching toward a Schism War whose fault lines run through individual Houses, perhaps with more than two sides.
Anyway,
Ken
Two centuries is like 2 generations considering how long magi live.
Hi,
They aren't. But real world historians often emphasize the knowledge and perspective gained by (western) Christendom through contact with Muslim civilization during the Crusades as critical to its development.
They certainly are not the only potential source of enlightnment, except that India and China are not reasonably attainable. A Faerie civilization might do, I suppose.
Europeans could certainly have developed all this without a clash of civilizations, but probably much more slowly, hence my assumption.
Exactly. My proposal is a kind of "start and happen differently."
Anyway,
Ken
1 Like
Hi,
More like three or four, if a magus trains his first apprentice no later than 50 or 60 years after Gauntlet. How does your perspective of the world compare to that of your great-grandmother?
(In an Order with simmering conflict, magi might also not live as long.)
Anyway,
Ken
Old views are generally held until the person Dies.